PhysicalCulture.canadian-forum.com
Some parts of the forum are not accessible to non-members, so be sure to join right away!

Post your training log, get involved in challenges, and add to our vault of fitness and physical culture wisdom!



Messages posted on this forum express the opinions of their respective authors and not necessarily those of anyone else. You agree to not hold anyone responsible for the content of any post but the author thereof and anyone who expresses agreement with him or her.

Messages with an attacking, demeaning or slanderous tone are prohibited.

Messages or usernames which promote, evoke or encourage unlawful, lewd or immoral practices are prohibited.

Vulgarities, curses and racial slurs as well as religious blasphemies, curses and exclamations, are offensive and neither pleasant nor welcome.

Copyrighted materials may not be posted without the express approval of the copyright holder, such approval to be displayed along with the content. If you notice material that is copyrighted but no permission is listed with it, you agree to report it to a moderator or to admin.

Post your messages only once. Double posting (this does not refer to accidentally replying twice to a post, but to creating multiple threads with identical content in multiple sections of the forum) is incredibly annoying and double posts will be deleted.

Make an effort on grammar and spelling. Using nothing but SMS-style language or l33t speech (ex: y r u h3re m8?) is unsophisticated, annoying and not welcome!

You accept that messages contravening the listing above may be edited or removed without need for notice and that transgressions deemed severe enough may be met with banning. Be helpful, kind and respectful to one another, and let's keep this community great!

General strength

View previous topic View next topic Go down

General strength

Post by Journeyman on Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:51 pm

Something I read a bit earlier today while trawling the interwebz:

"while specializing narrowly for short periods of time can be great for a short term goal, for long term goals a more general approach (meaning instead of just doing more weight workouts, mixing it up more) could lead to greater achievement. High level throwers aren't that far behind in the weights from high level O-lifters, high level football players aren't all that much behind high level powerlifters in some of the weight movements, high level strongmen are often very good at more than one discipline, while also training all kids of odd shit, and high level body builders have some of the highest over all strength levels while never necessarily focusing on any particular lifts as much as any of the above."

This is something I've been giving some thought ever since that Marvin Eder article. It's very true, and important to keep in mind especially as the 'skill/grease the groove/focus on 2-3 lifts' thing is pretty popular in terms of strength training these days. Now, this isn't to say that we should go too far to the other end and begin crossfitting the shit out of our training; but focusing on a slightly larger mixed bag might go further in terms of power we can use.
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Cesar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:54 pm

specializing leads to not achieving goals in the future...I agree being well-rounded leads to better results.
avatar
Cesar
Unsurpassed
Unsurpassed

Posts : 4349
Reputation : 50
Join date : 2012-12-01
Location : Albany, NY

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Journeyman on Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:10 pm

Specializing too far, that is. I mean, you have to specialize to achieve anything... but 'the bigger the base the higher the pyramid' seems to apply here. I haven't been able to successfully implement this on anything but deadlifts and pullups so far, though, and anything makes my DL go up so I might be barking up the wrong tree... gonna experiment more with this in the future.
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Cesar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:15 pm

yes you are right...overspecialization is no good. Specializing to achieve a goal as part of the bigger base as you note it works.

avatar
Cesar
Unsurpassed
Unsurpassed

Posts : 4349
Reputation : 50
Join date : 2012-12-01
Location : Albany, NY

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by itlives on Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:55 pm

I think it comes down to what you're good at. For instance Ranger can run like a gazelle and I run like my old goat that (literally) had one foot smashed by a horse.

Most people will , to some extent, gravitate towards their easy (read that- natural) abilities. There are some like me that work on the weaknesses (not including running) for most their training.
People naturally want to excel in something, so going for whatever it is in which you are naturally talented is the easiest road. Then, as they progress in the chosen ability to a point where they are a "recognized one", they will begin to think about and work on the weaknesses.
Then, we see the true all around potential start to come into play.
BWE really opened my eyes to the weakness of purely martial arts training.
The BW culturist is a fairly well-rounded bunch compared to other "sports".
avatar
itlives
Moderator, Selective Germaphobe
Moderator, Selective Germaphobe

Posts : 4244
Reputation : 162
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 61
Location : Shreveport Louisiana

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Dave on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:29 pm

"Specialization is for insects."

Of course, I say it tongue in cheek. :P
avatar
Dave
Admin
Admin

Posts : 7971
Reputation : 169
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 36
Location : Peterborough, Canada

http://physicalculture.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Journeyman on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:33 pm

^ Ugh. haha
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Dave on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:34 pm

The only context in which I agree with that statement would be where one specializes to the exclusion of competence in all other areas.
avatar
Dave
Admin
Admin

Posts : 7971
Reputation : 169
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 36
Location : Peterborough, Canada

http://physicalculture.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Journeyman on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:38 pm

...Which rarely happens, funnily enough. Take any olympic athlete, the very definition of specialization, and I'm sure you'd find a huge athletic base in just about every area. If nothing else, just from having the strength and endurance to train hard for multiple hours every day.
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Dave on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:41 pm

Journeyman wrote:...Which rarely happens, funnily enough.

Perhaps in fitness. There are lots of fields in which specialization can cripple someone and leave them unemployable after a paradigm shift.
avatar
Dave
Admin
Admin

Posts : 7971
Reputation : 169
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 36
Location : Peterborough, Canada

http://physicalculture.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Journeyman on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:44 pm

Right, not so much in competition, though, at least at the highest levels. Plenty of weak marathoners and fat powerlifters, though, in terms of amateur competition.
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Cesar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:47 pm

I am not sure if this will be relevant...but I think based on the last comment...


http://www.pathfindermethod.com/2012/07/20/how-to-become-adaptable/
avatar
Cesar
Unsurpassed
Unsurpassed

Posts : 4349
Reputation : 50
Join date : 2012-12-01
Location : Albany, NY

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Journeyman on Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:04 pm

Meh. I think for every 'awkward' 1000# squatter, there's someone like oleksandr kutcher or konstantin pozdeev (or konstantin konstantinov or aleksandr belayev) or even many of the heavyweight strongmen, who are very capable in multiple areas. Heck, look at Misha Koklayev.
Specialization doesn't necessarily equal limitations in other areas. It's just that some specialists become lazy--and, ironically, limit themselves in the process. Like the skinny marathoner who plays to his strengths and avoids lifting entirely, or the guy who'd rather just be strongfat than do some conditioning once in a while.
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Josh T. on Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:19 pm

I have been leaning more and more towards a similar paradigm shift as well in regards to your original post.

While I LOVE BW stuff (especially working towards more advanced variants), I am getting the itch to do weighted upper body stuff again; I don't think I had the base (of knowledge) to combine everything I wanted to successfully and not regress in other areas that I had previously been working on. However, I am getting the hang of it, more and more.

Dan and Pavel talk about all that in depth in 'Easy Strength', too. Still one of my all time favorite strength books.

avatar
Josh T.
Young Gun
Young Gun

Posts : 505
Reputation : 10
Join date : 2012-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by ChrisTG on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:01 am

I think that if your body can move as an integrated unit, and the muscular and nervous system is capable of producing large amounts of force and is well coordinated, you'll be good at most things. It's possible to train the body to do those things in the different disciples, and often someone who is very good at one can become very good at another in a short amount of time by simply practicing and retraining what is already there to a similar purpose.

It's possible to train and get stronger while having poor movement patterns, range of motion, and being generally clumsy, and you will probably get very good at what you can do with enough effort, but suck at doing anything else on the basis that you are clumsy and bad at moving vs an overspecialization issue.

Now obviously you need to specialize and work your strengths to get to the very top, but I don't think specialization necessarily removes the ability to be adaptable.

ChrisTG
Adept
Adept

Posts : 215
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2012-12-04
Location : Canada

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by TheMasterKey on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:29 am

Journeyman wrote:Now, this isn't to say that we should go too far to the other end and begin crossfitting the shit out of our training;

Crossfit get bashed alot. I don't know much about it myself. But I caught some of the Crossfit games on ESPN the other day, and those guys are straight beasts. I doubt there is anyone on here who could compete with them, physically or aesthetically.

But maybe that's the result of them specializing in/repeating those same handful of workouts? :scratch:

Off topic, whoever is this business brains behind Crossfit is a smart guy. They've taken fitness and turned it into something resembling a cult. :lol:
avatar
TheMasterKey
Elite
Elite

Posts : 731
Reputation : 30
Join date : 2012-12-01

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Dave on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:33 am

TMK, crossfit is just another method of training. A lot of the guys competing at high levels in crossfit, however, already built their foundation elsewhere and came into crossfit already super fit. Not only that, but they are a representation of the creme of the crop that crossfit has to offer, not the average crossfitter.

When crossfit is bashed it's often because a lot of the crossfit gyms have no quality control and basically push everyone to do the same workouts with predetermined loads, etc., regardless of whether they are a beginner weekend warrior or not.

Crossfit is nothing special or unique. It is just a combination of some of the most effective already existing training methods. There's nothing new under the sun.

ChrisTG wrote:I think that if your body can move as an integrated unit, and the muscular and nervous system is capable of producing large amounts of force and is well coordinated, you'll be good at most things. It's possible to train the body to do those things in the different disciples, and often someone who is very good at one can become very good at another in a short amount of time by simply practicing and retraining what is already there to a similar purpose.

It's possible to train and get stronger while having poor movement patterns, range of motion, and being generally clumsy, and you will probably get very good at what you can do with enough effort, but suck at doing anything else on the basis that you are clumsy and bad at moving vs an overspecialization issue.

Now obviously you need to specialize and work your strengths to get to the very top, but I don't think specialization necessarily removes the ability to be adaptable.

Chris, I dig that. And I also read a very interesting article a year ago that proposed that for every new neural pathway your brain forms, you are actually opening yourself up to being able to form even more neural pathways. In other words, the more you train yourself at anything, the better you'll be at a host of other things.

I know this seems self evident and like a restatement of some key principles already mentioned above, but you reminded me of the article which was really quite fascinating.

I'll have to keep my eyes open for that article again.
avatar
Dave
Admin
Admin

Posts : 7971
Reputation : 169
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 36
Location : Peterborough, Canada

http://physicalculture.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by ChrisTG on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:53 am

That sounds very interesting and I hope you stumble upon it.

I think it would make sense if your body would adapt to better adapt (to a point).

ChrisTG
Adept
Adept

Posts : 215
Reputation : 18
Join date : 2012-12-04
Location : Canada

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by TheMasterKey on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:04 am

Dave.cyco wrote:TMK, crossfit is just another method of training. A lot of the guys competing at high levels in crossfit, however, already built their foundation elsewhere and came into crossfit already super fit. Not only that, but they are a representation of the creme of the crop that crossfit has to offer, not the average crossfitter.

When crossfit is bashed it's often because a lot of the crossfit gyms have no quality control and basically push everyone to do the same workouts with predetermined loads, etc., regardless of whether they are a beginner weekend warrior or not.

Crossfit is nothing special or unique. It is just a combination of some of the most effective already existing training methods. There's nothing new under the sun.

Thanks for the breakdown Dave.

And you make a good point that they may have build their foundations doing something else entirely.
avatar
TheMasterKey
Elite
Elite

Posts : 731
Reputation : 30
Join date : 2012-12-01

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Josh T. on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:31 pm

Dave, regarding neural pathways, that is absolutely correct. There's a reason specialization in youth sports is considered a no-no by most strength coaches (well, the good ones). Basically, by learning lots of new skills, playing in multiple sports, etcetera, not only are you strengthening those neural pathways, but you are also reducing the learning curve for future skills that involve those neural pathways.

This is why, for me personally, I think I pick up skills/tricks a lot faster than other people do...I have a freakish base of sports, activities, etc., that I've done literally all my life, which sets the foundation for learning skills through something like tumbling, for example.
avatar
Josh T.
Young Gun
Young Gun

Posts : 505
Reputation : 10
Join date : 2012-12-02

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Journeyman on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:53 pm

Dave.cyco wrote:TMK, crossfit is just another method of training. A lot of the guys competing at high levels in crossfit, however, already built their foundation elsewhere and came into crossfit already super fit. Not only that, but they are a representation of the creme of the crop that crossfit has to offer, not the average crossfitter.

When crossfit is bashed it's often because a lot of the crossfit gyms have no quality control and basically push everyone to do the same workouts with predetermined loads, etc., regardless of whether they are a beginner weekend warrior or not.

Crossfit is nothing special or unique. It is just a combination of some of the most effective already existing training methods. There's nothing new under the sun.

All of this.
Take a dropout US olympic lifter hopeful, or an ex-thrower or strongman, and have them train *specifically* for the 'Games' and you get some of the super-athletes there. Though, if you look at their top guys their specs aren't otherworldly. By and large they're very well conditioned 3/4/5 lifters who have decent OL technique. The 'average' crossfitter is a sad, sad case. Randomizing workouts and having no goals (along with stupidly high rep olympic lifts, bad form, etc.) will get you absolutely nowhere, very fast. Not to mention the injury rate that comes from wannabe badass couch potatoes....

The only thing unique about it is how much and how many some weekend warriors have bought into a lot of Glassman's BS.
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Dave on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:41 am

Speaking of stupidly high rep Oly lifts with bad form, guess which one is the crossfitter...

avatar
Dave
Admin
Admin

Posts : 7971
Reputation : 169
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 36
Location : Peterborough, Canada

http://physicalculture.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Dave on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:42 am

Journeyman wrote:and have them train *specifically* for the 'Games'

I found this part hilarious! :mrgreen:
avatar
Dave
Admin
Admin

Posts : 7971
Reputation : 169
Join date : 2012-11-30
Age : 36
Location : Peterborough, Canada

http://physicalculture.canadian-forum.com

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Journeyman on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:57 pm

Well, they do. I recall there being some controversy this year because the 'athlete representatives', the big names in the business, were allowed to know beforehand exactly what the events would be... giving them time to actually train for them. So even the touted 'be ready for anything' factor is a sham when it comes to the competitions when money's on the line; 'HQ' has their favorites and skews things in their favor.
avatar
Journeyman
Exercise Encyclopedia
Exercise Encyclopedia

Posts : 2159
Reputation : 102
Join date : 2012-12-24

http://affectinggravity.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: General strength

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum