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The Muscle-up

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The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:05 pm

So yeah, I created this topic to discuss one of the most frustrating (for me at least) and fun strength moves out there. Apart from the fact that I tend to take insufficient rest between workouts that include muscle-ups, I think that one reason why progress is so difficult at these is due to the huge ROM. I realized that the larger the ROM of an exercise, the longer it will take to improve. That's why isolating the transition part of the (false grip) muscle-up might accelerate progress. What are your thoughts on this?
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Avocadoshake on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:13 pm

I personally think the dips on bar is part of the success.
A muscle up on rings is easier tho.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:30 pm

Avocadoshake wrote:I personally think the dips on bar is part of the success.
A muscle up on rings is easier tho.
I noticed that I start pressing earlier than most people during the muscle-up, probably due to my triceps being very strong. So yeah it's definitely a part of the success, but only a (very) small part...

A muscle-up on rings is only easier when you lean forward as soon as you enter the transition, which isn't possible when done on a bar. But when you would use the exact same motion on the rings you would be forced to use on a bar, a ring muscle-up would actually be slightly harder than a bar muscle-up due to the unstable nature of the rings.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Avocadoshake on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:43 pm

Yes and yes, I'm only a novice at the muscle up. Might practice tomorrow - again.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Rastaman on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:54 pm

Looking to start working dips, high Pullups and false grip in the new year once Ive done a bit more work with weighted Pullups.

Any advice on what sort of strength base I should work these to in respect to rep count, before starting to work the movement pattern?



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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:03 am

Rastaman wrote:Looking to start working dips, high Pullups and false grip in the new year once Ive done a bit more work with weighted Pullups.

Any advice on what sort of strength base I should work these to in respect to rep count, before starting to work the movement pattern?

You should do your dips on a single bar, and go additionally low, not maximally low, but try to mimic pressing out of the transition. To give you the strength to press out of the transition into the dip sooner. High pull-ups definitely help, as they can be seen as "muscle-up partials" or "muscle-up attempts" which obviously leads you towards the muscle-up. Remember that if you're going to use a false grip for your muscle-ups, make sure you're doing the high pull-ups with a false grip.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Avocadoshake on Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:09 am

How about using a bit momentum and jump?
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:12 am

Avocadoshake wrote:How about using a bit momentum and jump?
That's ok if you're still learning and aren't using a false grip. But otherwise it only hinders progress because you're always skipping the transition...
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Avocadoshake on Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:14 am

Yes, but once you're up, you could do the dips, right?
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:15 am

Avocadoshake wrote:Yes, but once you're up, you could do the dips, right?
Haha, yes of course. :pushup3:
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Rastaman on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:20 am

Thanks for the single bar tips mate.

I will start working these at some stage in the newyear
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Journeyman on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:59 am

Rastaman, once I could chin 100lb (about +2/3), I could do muscleups without any specific training.
They aren't pretty because I never practice them, but I can get up there without much trouble.
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False grip?

Post by 98poundweakling on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:25 pm

Iliander wrote:...That's why isolating the transition part of the (false grip) muscle-up might accelerate progress...
Hi, Ili! Would you mind explaining what you mean by false grip here? :scratch: Do you mean the false grip used on rings, or something else? Does it apply to a muscle-up on a bar?
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Journeyman on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:27 pm

Same as false grip on rings. Definitely applies to muscleups on a bar, it's basically impossible without it unless the bar you're using is VERY slick... or you're wearing gloves, or something.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Josh T. on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:39 pm

Muscle-Ups are actually, if you want to get *technical* about it, easier on rings. Once you get past form, you don't have to pull as hard on rings as you do on the bar.

The key is figuring out the false grip. After I was able to do 15 pull-Ups, I did 3 muscle-ups the first time I tried. The strength will be there, it's just getting used to the false grip if that makes any sense.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:47 pm

@98: Yep, the same false grip used on rings.

@Jman: I have to disagree with you. It's not strictly necessary to turn your hands around the bar in order to successfully muscle-up without a false grip. If I had a bit more explosiveness in my pull-ups I could do a clean muscle-up without false grip without turning my hands around the bar. You should take a look at this guy:



He's using a normal grip and doesn't really change hand position.

@Josh: Did you use momentum and/or lean forward a lot? Because 3 MUs first time with only basic pull-up strength is... strange. :suspect: :confused:
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Josh T. on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:55 pm

I used a small kip, that was it. the last rep I had to use some major lean, but other than that, no.

I didn't have "basic" pull-Up strength though. I was repping out with 50lbs at the time. That's certainly not that strong, but it's better than basic. I built a very solid foundation. Case in point: I just started doing pull-ups again 5 weeks ago (due to an elbow injury). Did nothing more than 3 reps, and I was able to do 17 pull-ups with no warm-up without any specific higher rep training. That's what building a good foundation does for you.

Anyway, all that is to say, once you figure out the false grip, muscle-ups aren't that bad. Start with a kip and decrease the amount of kip over time until you're able to do them strict, in conjunction with heavier pull-up training, will get you some nice muscle-up strength.

Also realize that I tend to pick up things pretty quickly because of the background I have in athletics, which certainly does make a difference when it comes to picking up skills.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:07 pm

Pretty much nobody even has basic strength. Foundation = basic. You built good basic strength. 15 pull-ups is still a too low amount of reps to be considered "the end of the strength-influinced rep range," if you know what I mean. Imo a kip will hinder progress, just trying to get as high as possible using the false grip will get you there fastest (from my experience).

I guess my forearms are too **** long to develop transition strength quickly haha.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Josh T. on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:10 pm

If you know how to monitor the force behind your kip, it is a valuable progression tool. Otherwise, explosive pulls combined with SLOW negatives (Especially at the point of transition), will get you there as well. Not to mention weighted pull-ups.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:58 pm

You're right on the slow negatives! Forgot about those :) That's most likely what I used to lack...

I've been thinking and a bent-arm CTI (actually bent-arm 135° CTI, since the line that connects the hand with the shoulder is what shows the straight-arm version) might make you incredibly strong at MUs!
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Bissen on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:20 pm

MUs on rings are, for sure, easier than on a bar.

I can do both (well, on bar, it's a little one-elbow-at-a-time-style), but the it's clearly prettier on the rings.

Tricky part is without a doubt the transition. For a TRUE MU, tricep extension is key. Slizzardman explains it pretty well these two videos:


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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:01 pm

What he's talking about is more internal shoulder rotation though. Not sure what could be less "true" than that MU. A strong wrist curl is also MUCH more important than a strong triceps extension for that kind of MU.
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Muscle-Ups

Post by 98poundweakling on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:30 pm

This conversation on muscle-ups is benefiting me a lot. Please keep it coming!
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Journeyman on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:33 pm

Iliander wrote:@98: Yep, the same false grip used on rings.

@Jman: I have to disagree with you. It's not strictly necessary to turn your hands around the bar in order to successfully muscle-up without a false grip. If I had a bit more explosiveness in my pull-ups I could do a clean muscle-up without false grip without turning my hands around the bar. You should take a look at this guy:



He's using a normal grip and doesn't really change hand position.

@Josh: Did you use momentum and/or lean forward a lot? Because 3 MUs first time with only basic pull-up strength is... strange. :suspect: :confused:

He's using a normal grip but his hands are rotating as he gets into position for the dip. Because you can't do a dip with your knuckles facing straight up, in a normal pullup position... jussayin.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:39 pm

Yes, but only at the very last. He's already over the bar once he rotates his hands for the dip (which happens automatically). He doesn't rotate his hands for the transition.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Journeyman on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:34 pm

That's what I was referring to before--your hands must rotate to complete a muscle up, if you don't use a false grip, that's all.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Iliander on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:38 pm

But you said:

"Same as false grip on rings. Definitely applies to muscleups on a bar, it's basically impossible without it unless the bar you're using is VERY slick... or you're wearing gloves, or something."

The slight change in hand position happens automatically once you're on top of the bar. I don't think you need gloves or a very slick bar, it's just that a muscle-up without false grip requires more strength (and some technique as well) than a muscle-up with false grip, due to leverage.
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Re: The Muscle-up

Post by Journeyman on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:43 pm

^ Right, because unless your hands can actually turn on the bar, you're gonna run into difficulties. You need dry hands/gloves/slick or rotating bar, if you're gonna rely on your hands sliding into position for the dip instead of using a false grip; or pulling so explosively that you don't have friction difficulties.
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Re: The Muscle-up

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