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Madmans' first log 2013

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Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:54 pm

Hello everybody!
2013 has been an interesting year so far, I've really been pushing for higher volume, and have started listening to the people that say over-training is baloney.

I've never logged a workout online before so I hope it makes sense to y'all.

Here goes.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:02 am

2013-03-09

Still kinda sore from my last couple of workouts, so I'm doin' lighter stuff today.

Ab wheel:
6x10,14x5.

Db swings 25lbs:
5x10

Random neck work:
30 mins

Pistols:
19x2

I'm hoping to do some deadlifts tomorrow, maybe pushups.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Dave on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:10 am

Welcome Madman! Over training exists, but a better term for it might be "under recovering". As long as you eat and rest properly, you should be able to recover, provided you train within your means. The human body can often do a lot more than it should do, leading to all kinds of soreness the next days(s).

And just so I understand, did you do two sets of 19 pistols or 9 sets of two pistols, or does it mean you did 19 on each leg?

By the way, if you're into neck work, why not get involved in our Building Bridges challenge? :)
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:26 am

Heheh, I'm getting solid education in post workout soreness these days, to combat this I change exercises and sleep alot.

I did 19 sets of 2 pistols on each leg. If I was a thinking man I'd write: "19sets of 2 on both legs"

Building bridges sounds neat, I may try if it isn't too tough for a pencil neck like me.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Dave on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:59 am

You can definitely do it. I was a skinny kid holding 1:00+ wrestler bridges in my first month doing them. Just take it slow and this is one area in which you do NOT want to push the volume too fast. Make sure you listen to your body. Hopefully we'll see you weigh in to the challenge. :eyebrows:
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by itlives on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:29 am

Welcome Madman! Good to see you here.
Since you didn't do an introduction (and that's ok) why don't you go to "General Discussions" And go down to "What are your stats"
If we know a bit more about you - age, height, weight and maybe goals - it will help any answers or comments on our part.

19 sets of 2 pistols is great! I would have written it
pistols- 2 (rt/ lt) x 19
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Iliander on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:50 am

Welcome Madman. That's some high volume right there!
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by andre66 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:59 pm

Good luck with your workouts. Good group of guys here if you ever need help with it.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:38 am

Thanks, you guys are really motivating. :D

2013-03-10

Wrestler bridge:
8 sets of 1min

Neck work (kneeling front bridges)
30min

Deadlifts:
190 lbs
10 sets of 2 reps

Burpees without jump.
10x10

Now to see if I can make 4th place on that challenge.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by itlives on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:38 am

I can see you're not a beginner!
Good work!
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:51 am

itlives wrote:I can see you're not a beginner!
Good work!

You're no slouch yourself! I think those swings would kill me!

I didn't really make time today, so it's mostly just bridges.
This is the most wrestlers bridges I've ever done, and I just realized that I'm doing it with a relaxed neck.
So now I'm trying to "pull" with my head to tighten up my neck muscles.

Neck ridges.
10 sets of 1 min

Pushups:
5 sets of 15

Not much here.
Tomorrow is gonna be better, way better.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by itlives on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:49 pm

Madman wrote:

Tomorrow is gonna be better, way better.

Umm, it's tomorrow :mrgreen:

It's ok, I only workout every other day myself. But then, I'm old(er) :laugh2:

Oops! I see tomorrow isn't over yet!
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:17 am

12-3-2013

"It ain't over till it's over" - Rocky

I must have angered the gods. Been feeling lousy the past couple of days.

Pullups:
15 sets 5 reps

Ab wheel:
15 sets 5 reps

shoulder press 2 handed bb 70 lbs
10 sets 3 reps
5 sets 2 reps.

Weightless squats.
10 sets 25 reps.

More random neck work:
30 mins

Wrestler bridge:
4 sets 1 min.

I'm seriously thinking of taking tomorrow off, as taking naps all the darn time is extremely time-expending.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Dave on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:31 am

Just do some mobility work. Sometimes I train almost every single day and sometimes (like the last few weeks) I train 2-3 times per week or even less. So long as you are doing good exercises (you are :nod:), pushing yourself and taking proper rest and recovery, you will continually improve.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by itlives on Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 pm

Dave.cyco wrote:Just do some mobility work. Sometimes I train almost every single day and sometimes (like the last few weeks) I train 2-3 times per week or even less. So long as you are doing good exercises (you are :nod:), pushing yourself and taking proper rest and recovery, you will continually improve.
What he said :^:

I would put emphasis on "you are doing good exercises" . I don't know how hard you've been exercising, but that last workout would have me glad to take a day off!
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:49 am

Dave.cyco wrote:Just do some mobility work. Sometimes I train almost every single day and sometimes (like the last few weeks) I train 2-3 times per week or even less. So long as you are doing good exercises (you are :nod:), pushing yourself and taking proper rest and recovery, you will continually improve.

I guess it's how close you are to pr's that determines training frequency. In my experience, trying to hit rep maxes and pr's is way more tiring than volume work.

Mobility work is boring, but tonight I've got nothing else to do,as I've sworn off exercise for the rest of the day. :scaredy: withdrawal sets in.



"So long as you are doing good exercises (you are :nod:)",
"I would put emphasis on "you are doing good exercises" "

Thanks. But now you're gonna hate me for this: I've been thinking of adding bicep curls to my exercises, not the teenager kind, but maybe 15-20 heavy singles. Brooks Kubic style. I dunno yet, but I do need some serious grip and bicep improvements, as my pullups are basically limited by my biceps and forearm endurance.

Would either of you guys use those cheap little hand grippers? I have some, but I dunno if hitting 100+ reps in a workout would do any good.

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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:54 am

14-03-2013

Okay, so not much in the way of bridging, but that's what you get when you place an exercise at the end of a workout.

deadlifts
190lbs 10 sets of 2
170lbs 10 sets of 2
150lbs 10 sets of 2

Bench:
120 lbs 1 sets of 2 reps
100 lbs 10 sets of 2 reps
70 lbs 10 sets of 5 reps

'EZ' bar curls (two armed)

80 lbs 5 sets of 1 rep
40 lbs 6 sets of 6 reps

Neck work:
30 mins

bridging
2x1 min

Tomorrow is gonna be tight for time, so I'm just gonna pick one exercise and hammer it. Just don't know which one yet.

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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by CheesedogTheFirst on Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:26 pm

Lots of good work in this log Madman! Keep it up :press:
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:37 am

Cheesedog wrote:Lots of good work in this log Madman! Keep it up :press:

Thanks.

15-03-2013

Bridge:
5 sets of 1 min

Burpees:
5 sets of 10.


Okay, so I'm caught between two extremes. If I do workouts like yesterday,I end up essentially taking days off in cases like this, but if I easy workouts all the time then there's no point.

I haven't been sleeping well either, which is a symptom of overtraining, or in my case, staying up late watching tv and drinking too much red-bull during the day.

Something of note: I have pretty embarrassing cardio.
it may be time to start doing my workouts circuit style or something, maybe some burpee only workouts.

I shall ponder these findings until morrow of next. :think:
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:28 pm

16-03-2013

Holy work-capacity deficits Batman!

I tried some full circuits, but nearly fell apart doing them. So now I'm doing supersets on everything until I'm in some sort of "shape"

10 burpees supersetted with 20 squats
6 sets

10 leg lifts supersetted with 5 ab wheel
10 sets

Not a great workout.
Cardio is the one thing that's always bothered me, I've never been good at it, even when I was young I was the slowest and always gasping for air.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Brahma Bill on Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:51 pm

I'll bet that Burpee/Squat combo had you breathing hard. Nice work
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:39 am

17-03-2013

No cardio today.

Deadlifts
170 lbs: 10 sets of 2

Shoulder press two handed
80 lbs: 10 sets of 2

Pullups: 5 sets of 6

Neck work:
30 mins

Wrestler bridges
4x1 min.

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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:53 am

Madman wrote:
Thanks. But now you're gonna hate me for this: I've been thinking of adding bicep curls to my exercises, not the teenager kind, but maybe 15-20 heavy singles. Brooks Kubic style. I dunno yet, but I do need some serious grip and bicep improvements, as my pullups are basically limited by my biceps and forearm endurance.

Would either of you guys use those cheap little hand grippers? I have some, but I dunno if hitting 100+ reps in a workout would do any good.


Unless you can already curl 135, do not do singles, believe me they are totally unproductive unless you're at a certain level of strength. Start light and rep out, seriously, 10-20 reps or so. On one day, do a ton of sets of pullups, as many reps as you can stopping 1 short of failure (you should really have to struggle on the last one) and if you can't do pullups do half-range chins/pulls (top half of the movement) or horizontal rows. Then finish off with a max set of curls or reverse curls with an empty bar. If you can't get at least 20 start with either an empty ezcurl bar or one with 5s (for a total of 35#). On another day, do descending sets of curls i.e. 50x10, 45x10, 40x12, 35x15 etc. reduce weight every set so you can at least match, and try to slightly surpass, the number of reps you did on the set before that. Then, hit the bar and do bar hangs for as long as possible. Keep you lats and upper back tight, and grip and hold on for as long as you can, for several sets. This will build good grip strength for pullups or deadlifts, and help build the upper back strength for pullups as well.

Low reps are seriously overrated for beginners. I made the most of my 'beginner's gains' when I started lifting by doing a lot of sets of 10+, especially on deadlifts. I went from 255@125 to 345@140 doing a lot of sets of 8-12 and dropping reps over the course of several months, just like a basic linear powerlifting cycle. I think that's a good way to get started here if you're under a 300# pull, 225# squat, etc.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Rastaman on Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:07 am

Supersets and circuits are as close as I get to cardio!

Smart workouts mate, good way to get in shape.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by itlives on Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:56 am

Good work on those supersets! You should do more on your non-strength days.
Speaking of strength, listen to the wise young one (J-man)
That last post of his is medicine for what ails you!
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by TheMasterKey on Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:00 am

Hey Madman, what do you do for your neck work?
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:01 am

My "neck work" is really just me kneeling and trying to push my head through the floor thirty seconds at a time. It's not much, but I have a seriously weak neck.


As far as Journeyman's advice is concerned, I always thought that low reps built strength, but I'll give some higher rep work a try tomorrow, as I appear to be a "beginner".
I've heard that 100 total reps per muscle-group was supposed to build muscle, so if it also helps my strength I'll call it win-win.
And when I count the weight I'm lifting, I don't include the bar weight, so 80 lbs+ 25 ezcurl is about 105 lbs. I just never add the bar weight as it's not olympic.


I'm gonna be doing these supersets regularly, as they seem to be kicking my butt.


10 burpees/20 squats:

6 sets.






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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:46 pm

Low rep training, progressing with low repetitions, definitely has more carryover to 1RM strength. However, higher reps can be good for technique practice, causing more total fatigue (inducing muscle growth) and just base building overall. No need to do a lot of heavy singles/doubles/triples when you can barely deadlift double bodyweight.
It's possible to progress with any rep range, from 1s to 5s, 10s, 20s, or 50 rep sets. You won't be able to add as much weight over time as you would with a low rep set, but high rep training can build a different type of strength. If you want the big 1RM you'll have to train specifically for that, eventually, but build that base first. One way you can do that is starting with moderate/high reps and tapering down over time. Here's the program I used very successfully when I first started lifting:

-Start with 50-60% 1RM.
-Do 4 sets of 12, once per week.
Do this for 4 weeks, adding 5-10 pounds each week. The last set should be pretty tough, the first set should just be a nice warmup.
-Add 10lb on the 5th week and do 4 sets of 8. Do this for 3 more weeks after that... again, 4 weeks total, adding 5-10lb each time.
-Add 10lb and do 4x6, again, 4 weeks.
-Add 10lb and do 4x3, 4 weeks, again, adding 5-10lb each week.

All told you should be doing 4x3 with 80-160lb more than you started out doing 4x12 with. For me this was more than my 1RM than when I started; I think most lifters without a ton of experience could duplicate those results. Then when you're done with these 4 months you can definitely do all the low rep training you want, you're conditioned for it, you're stronger and ready to go specifically or a bigger max.
Hope that helps.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:47 pm

Journeyman wrote:Low rep training, progressing with low repetitions, definitely has more carryover to 1RM strength. However, higher reps can be good for technique practice, causing more total fatigue (inducing muscle growth) and just base building overall. No need to do a lot of heavy singles/doubles/triples when you can barely deadlift double bodyweight.
It's possible to progress with any rep range, from 1s to 5s, 10s, 20s, or 50 rep sets. You won't be able to add as much weight over time as you would with a low rep set, but high rep training can build a different type of strength. If you want the big 1RM you'll have to train specifically for that, eventually, but build that base first. One way you can do that is starting with moderate/high reps and tapering down over time. Here's the program I used very successfully when I first started lifting:

-Start with 50-60% 1RM.
-Do 4 sets of 12, once per week.
Do this for 4 weeks, adding 5-10 pounds each week. The last set should be pretty tough, the first set should just be a nice warmup.
-Add 10lb on the 5th week and do 4 sets of 8. Do this for 3 more weeks after that... again, 4 weeks total, adding 5-10lb each time.
-Add 10lb and do 4x6, again, 4 weeks.
-Add 10lb and do 4x3, 4 weeks, again, adding 5-10lb each week.

All told you should be doing 4x3 with 80-160lb more than you started out doing 4x12 with. For me this was more than my 1RM than when I started; I think most lifters without a ton of experience could duplicate those results. Then when you're done with these 4 months you can definitely do all the low rep training you want, you're conditioned for it, you're stronger and ready to go specifically or a bigger max.
Hope that helps.


It's all sound advice, but I'm not even sure how long I have access to weights, as I may be moving away at some point.
The whole "building a base" thing had me intrigued, so I skimmed some articles from the powerlifting blog Lift Run Bang, and I think I've got the gist of it. Though I've never had the patience for long powerlifting cycles, I may try this at some point.

I've got a question though.
Do I have to taper? or could one hypothetically just do a lot of volume, then cut the volume and try to smash pr's for a while?

Thanks in advance, Journeyman! :D

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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:34 pm

These high reps were refreshing.

Deadlifts:
100lbs, 10x10

Bench:
70lbs, 10x10

Curls:
40lbs:5 sets of 10

Shrugs
70lb barbell, 5 sets of 10

Ab wheel:
20 reps

kneeling neck work:
30 mins.

No bridges today, I'm toasted.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:30 pm

Madman wrote:
Journeyman wrote:Low rep training, progressing with low repetitions, definitely has more carryover to 1RM strength. However, higher reps can be good for technique practice, causing more total fatigue (inducing muscle growth) and just base building overall. No need to do a lot of heavy singles/doubles/triples when you can barely deadlift double bodyweight.
It's possible to progress with any rep range, from 1s to 5s, 10s, 20s, or 50 rep sets. You won't be able to add as much weight over time as you would with a low rep set, but high rep training can build a different type of strength. If you want the big 1RM you'll have to train specifically for that, eventually, but build that base first. One way you can do that is starting with moderate/high reps and tapering down over time. Here's the program I used very successfully when I first started lifting:

-Start with 50-60% 1RM.
-Do 4 sets of 12, once per week.
Do this for 4 weeks, adding 5-10 pounds each week. The last set should be pretty tough, the first set should just be a nice warmup.
-Add 10lb on the 5th week and do 4 sets of 8. Do this for 3 more weeks after that... again, 4 weeks total, adding 5-10lb each time.
-Add 10lb and do 4x6, again, 4 weeks.
-Add 10lb and do 4x3, 4 weeks, again, adding 5-10lb each week.

All told you should be doing 4x3 with 80-160lb more than you started out doing 4x12 with. For me this was more than my 1RM than when I started; I think most lifters without a ton of experience could duplicate those results. Then when you're done with these 4 months you can definitely do all the low rep training you want, you're conditioned for it, you're stronger and ready to go specifically or a bigger max.
Hope that helps.


It's all sound advice, but I'm not even sure how long I have access to weights, as I may be moving away at some point.
The whole "building a base" thing had me intrigued, so I skimmed some articles from the powerlifting blog Lift Run Bang, and I think I've got the gist of it. Though I've never had the patience for long powerlifting cycles, I may try this at some point.

I've got a question though.
Do I have to taper? or could one hypothetically just do a lot of volume, then cut the volume and try to smash pr's for a while?

Thanks in advance, Journeyman! :D


LRB is excellent. Just remember that Paul's blogs are oriented specifically towards powerlifting, with his own 2-3x per week training formats that he sells in his book.
The short answer: no you don't necessarily have to taper.
The longer answer: for best results, you definitely do. Higher reps and more volume are great for building size, strength, and work capacity, but again, they don't have as much carryover to a 1RM as a set of 3-5 would. So, if you switch directly from, say, a GVT or density training program to trying to go for a 1RM the next workout you probably won't be able to demonstrate your newfound power because you tried to jump directly from the base without bridging the gap.
One thing that I like doing is, if you train a lift twice a week, go heavy once and do more volume once. You could do 10x10 or lots of descending sets or some sort of density/TVT format on one day, and go heavy on the other--low sets of low reps with high percentages of max, or work up to a top single, or do a simple double progression with sets of 3-5, whatever. Then you can build both at once if you're specializing on just a few lifts--it'd be tremendously draining if you tried to do it with a lot of different exercises.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:20 pm

Yesterday was a day off.

21-03-2013

10 burpees/20squats
6 sets

Deadlifts 100lbs.
10x10

Bench 70lbs
4 sets of 10

Cut this day short, been feeling sick this afternoon.

The light/heavy thing sounds easier for me.
Just do volume and practice some heavy lifts here and there, then if I'm still lifting after 4 months drop the volume, lift heavy until I stall, then go back to more volume. A two step process sounds more do-able to me, as I'm notoriously bad at following set programs.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:42 pm

Cool, lemme know how it goes!
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:24 am

22-03-2013

some heavy stuff, as I'm short on time.

Deadlift
250 lbs, 2 sets 1 rep.
(this beats my febuary pr of 210 lbs. wtf?)

Bench press
1x130lbs
I usually don't try for singles, as I'm without a spotter, and using sawhorses to rack the weight.
Dunno if it's a pr cause I didn't log them for the bench.


Bridges.
1:30,1:20.

I'm happy with this, so all I gotta do is find a way to do heavy days without killing myself. I know it's not proper to max every workout, so maybe some kind of 90% thing will work. dunno yet. Got some googling to do.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Dave on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:32 am

Madman wrote:Bridges.
1:30,1:20.

Hey I just noticed this. Nice work. When I update the scoreboard, I just use the sigs in posts in the challenge thread, FYI, so make sure that you post in the challenge thread too. It doesn't matter what you say there as long as your sig is up to date. You can just say "updated" if you want.

I'm happy with this, so all I gotta do is find a way to do heavy days without killing myself. I know it's not proper to max every workout, so maybe some kind of 90% thing will work. dunno yet.

Everyone's work capacity is different though and however yours is now, you can build it up and do more if you are responsible about it. Maxing out every day has worked for me in the short term. I found that I could max out every day on squats last summer, so long as I eventually rested up. My progress was not stellar, but it was decent enough, espacially considering I did not eat like a pig, and I still PRed fairly frequently from it. So if you're looking for a push, yeah max every day for say a week (on exercises that you are good at), but then dial it back big time. However when I tried it with bench press, I just couldn't handle it.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:52 pm

Madman wrote:22-03-2013

some heavy stuff, as I'm short on time.

Deadlift
250 lbs, 2 sets 1 rep.
(this beats my febuary pr of 210 lbs. wtf?)

Bench press
1x130lbs
I usually don't try for singles, as I'm without a spotter, and using sawhorses to rack the weight.
Dunno if it's a pr cause I didn't log them for the bench.


Bridges.
1:30,1:20.

I'm happy with this, so all I gotta do is find a way to do heavy days without killing myself. I know it's not proper to max every workout, so maybe some kind of 90% thing will work. dunno yet. Got some googling to do.
Nice!

I'd say just work up to a heavy set of 3-5, maybe, then follow with a backoff set. Let the volume day do the work, the 'heavy' day is just to keep you accustomed to lifting heavy weights fast.
I'm working on some sort of mini-cycle program that'd go along well with density/volume training on one day, I'll put it up when I've seen whether it works or not.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by itlives on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:20 pm

These little snippets of info really do help some of us (me).

Good work Mad's!
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:20 am

itlives wrote:Good work Mad's!

thanks.

itlives wrote:These little snippets of info really do help some of us (me).

Yeah, he's been real patient too, seeing as how I'm a little stubborn to change.

"I'd say just work up to a heavy set of 3-5, maybe, then follow with a backoff set. Let the volume day do the work, the 'heavy' day is just to keep you accustomed to lifting heavy weights fast. " -Jman

That almost sounds like those more advanced 5x5 routines. I'm definitely not gonna hit my 1 rep max every heavy day, cause I've been feeling a little knee pain since last time. Ramping to 1x3-5 sounds a little more appropriate for a beginner/intermediate.

As for what Dave said, it sounds like he was peaking using only singles, and doing it HFT style, kinda like a competition lifter strapped for time. There's definitely more than one way to punch a horse.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:32 am

23-03-2013

Deadlifts:
120lbs.
10x10

Bench:
70 lbs.
10x10

EZ curls/reverse curls.
40lbs.
4 sets of 10, 1x8, 1x6

BB shrugs.
80 lbs.
5 sets of 10

Pullups:
10, 7.

That's all for now.
I was actually in a pretty bad mood until I hit the iron, even considering skipping a day.
Glad I didn't.

Tomorrow is gonna be cardio and neck stuff.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:00 am

24-03-2013

10 Burpees/ 20 squats

Wrestler bridge.
2x2mins

More like a day off.

Tomorrow is heavy day.


Last edited by Madman on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : oops, traveled back in time. date was 24th)
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by TheMasterKey on Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:13 am

Madman wrote:I was actually in a pretty bad mood until I hit the iron, even considering skipping a day.
Glad I didn't.

:up:
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by alexander_a on Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:39 am

Nice training, mate! I like the combo of bw and weights!

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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:43 am

alexander_a wrote:Nice training, mate! I like the combo of bw and weights!

Thanks, I figure that doing both will give me more well-rounded strength.


25-03-2013

Deadlift
210lbs, 1x3

Bench,
100lbs, 1x3

Not much today, volume is tomorrow.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:54 am

Yesterday
26-03-2013

Deadlifts
120 lbs.
15 sets 10 reps

Bench
70 lbs
10 sets 10 reps

Pushups
5 sets 12 reps

BB Shrugs
90 lbs
5 sets 10 reps

EZ Reverse curls
40 lbs
10-10-8-6

Curls
40 lbs
8-7-6-5

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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:58 am

27-03-2013

Am:

bridges
1:40, 1:20

10 burpees/20 squats
2 sets



Pm:

20 squats/10 burpees/20 squats
3 sets

Bridges 3x1min
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:33 am

Madman wrote:
"I'd say just work up to a heavy set of 3-5, maybe, then follow with a backoff set. Let the volume day do the work, the 'heavy' day is just to keep you accustomed to lifting heavy weights fast. " -Jman

That almost sounds like those more advanced 5x5 routines. I'm definitely not gonna hit my 1 rep max every heavy day, cause I've been feeling a little knee pain since last time. Ramping to 1x3-5 sounds a little more appropriate for a beginner/intermediate.

As for what Dave said, it sounds like he was peaking using only singles, and doing it HFT style, kinda like a competition lifter strapped for time. There's definitely more than one way to punch a horse.
Ramping to 1x3-5 and switching up reps/sets when you stall can hold you for quite some time if you want a simple, straightforward approach. If you 'maxed' every time it would be a good idea to stick with a 'working' max--i.e. something you can lift without getting overly psyched up or taking a bunch of warmup sets, etc. Walk up to the bar, lift, add weight, and repeat until you can't simply 'walk up and lift it'.
Competition lifters never really peak with daily singles. I'm sure someone's done it (Jim Williams benched heavy every day) but I've never heard of that being the case. Generally powerlifters taper down and take some time off before a competition, as do strongmen; and olympic lifters stick with something they can move fast but it still pretty heavy on various lifts, many of them doing this sort of training right up until the day before a competition.

For example, here's OL gold medalist lu xiaojun front squatting 530 (at 170) for a superfast double right before a competition:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:52 pm

Man...Xiaojun is hella strong.

I definitely don't get too worked up for my heavy stuff, just kinda go "kinda max" then call it a day.


Speaking of olympic lifters.
I think it's that acceleration/training volume combined with the fact that none of these guys lift to failure, that makes them so successful.

And if you look at the Finish and Russian deadlifting programs, they use lighter weights, higher volume and place emphasis on acceleration.

Basically the same methodology if you axsk me.

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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:10 pm

Madman wrote:Man...Xiaojun is hella strong.

I definitely don't get too worked up for my heavy stuff, just kinda go "kinda max" then call it a day.


Speaking of olympic lifters.
I think it's that acceleration/training volume combined with the fact that none of these guys lift to failure, that makes them so successful.

And if you look at the Finish and Russian deadlifting programs, they use lighter weights, higher volume and place emphasis on acceleration.

Basically the same methodology if you axsk me.


It's a bit different. Volume PL programs have to stay around 70-80% because with a grinding sorta lift (S/B/D) most people have to stick with a lighter percentage, to move it fast and lift it often.
OLers as a group tend to go pretty heavy even on 'practice' lifts, and many of them work up to a true max (fail on last attempt, sometimes several times in a row) once a week.
The quick lifts are easier to recover from and, being quick by nature, can be done heavier in training. On a clean or snatch the only 'slow' part is the first pull, and the weight you'd be using is much much less that what your normal working weight on deadlift would be, so it's less wear and tear if you've mastered the technique.

There's an ongoing argument that speed work doesn't really apply to raw powerlifting, only geared powerlifting, but I'm not gonna touch that.
Most of the most successful western powerlifters train more or less like bodybuilders, though. At least, more like bodybuilders than olympic lifters. Same goes for strongmen everywhere, including in eastern europe.
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Madman on Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:58 am

To me 70% is pretty darn light, but I don't do olympic lifts and 70% is 500lbs for some people. I guess weight is relative to speed anyway.

All I know about gear is that sunglasses add 20% to all of my upper body lifts, backwards baseball cap: 1000%!1!!11

Prolly practicing rebounding out of knee wraps/bench shirts is the entire spirit of speed work.

Trying to lift fast is an odd thing though, some people say to go at an even pace, while others say that even if the weight is gonna go slowly, that you should try to move it as fast as you can. Something a bout fast twitch muscles or some-such.

And if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were trying to push a split routine on me!
What about 'functional strength'?


Here's today

Deads
170x5 reps

Bench
110x3 reps

Pullups
2x8

bridges.
3x1 min


Pretty lame.

I'm thinking of taking either tomorrow or saturday off, as I'm completly avoiding my workouts thought the day now. :headbang:
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

Post by Journeyman on Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:55 am

Don't feel bad if you have to take a few days off and recharge, it happens to me all the time.

Madman wrote:To me 70% is pretty darn light, but I don't do olympic lifts and 70% is 500lbs for some people. I guess weight is relative to speed anyway.
All I know about gear is that sunglasses add 20% to all of my upper body lifts, backwards baseball cap: 1000%!1!!11

Prolly practicing rebounding out of knee wraps/bench shirts is the entire spirit of speed work.

Trying to lift fast is an odd thing though, some people say to go at an even pace, while others say that even if the weight is gonna go slowly, that you should try to move it as fast as you can. Something a bout fast twitch muscles or some-such.

And if I didn't know any better, I'd say you were trying to push a split routine on me!
What about 'functional strength'?

If you look at most russian powerlifting programs the percentages are between 60 and 80% for the most part. Something you do multiple explosive paused sets with, stopping well before failure, with perfect form. Obviously, fast, snappy, strict form 'practice' can help raw lifters as well; I have a friend who got a lot out of sheiko recently and I've had varying success with smolov variants myself (though smolov is an OL squat program the basic idea is similar).

As far as geared lifting goes, speed work and focusing on the lockout is necessary because the suits help the bottom portion but not the top--so a shirted bencher will need to prioritize tricep strength, whereas a raw bencher will need more shoulder and chest power because he has to deal with the sticking point at the bottom of the lift. There are differences in other ways too... some shirts offer so much support that the lifter actually has to do a sort of pull/row to get the bar to touch his chest when he's wearing the shirt. I think this is pretty dumb but it's a skill in itself, completely changes what you have to do apparently. Anyway, speed work helps because you'll need to be as fast as possible to keep that momentum when the help from gear drops off near lockout.

Lifting fast = good is pretty much universally accepted now in athletic/strength training circles, though I think it's common sense that you should be in control of the weight especially if it's light. Generally I lift at a moderate pace unless I'm working towards a low rep or 1RM PR on a lift. And of course, if you go heavy (that being a relative term) you have to try and lift fast to get the bar moving at all.


There's nothing wrong with split routines. Functionality has nothing to do with it because any sensible lifter doing a split routine will be starting off with heavy compounds anyway. The reason full body routines are generally (not always) preferred by athletes is that with a split routine, you'll probably be focusing more on fully fatiguing the muscle because you won't hit it again for a while... an athlete can't afford that because he has other training to do. If my whole back is trashed from deadlifts AND rows AND shrugs AND chins AND some machine work yesterday, I won't be able to practice running or throwing or wrestling or whatever, today. Of course, if you're just training for aesthetic reasons, or for yourself, without worrying about a sport, you can split up your workouts all you want because recovery ain't as much of an issue. So with a split routine the advantage is being able to do much more focused work for the lift/muscle group of the day, the disadvantage is that with that extra effort you'll have to take more time and recover.
There are a gazillion different types of bodybuilding splits but chest-triceps/back-biceps/shoulders/legs is pretty common, as is chest-biceps/legs/shoulders-triceps/back. If you're a beginner you don't have to spend nearly as much time lifting for each bodypart or muscle group.
So you might start off doing:
bench-squat-row
alternated with
press-deadlift-chin
three days a week. Then from there you might want to start doing a bit more work for each bodypart. Of course, if you do everything in one day still you'll be wiped out the next day and you just won't have time to fit everything in on one day... so you might do press/squat/pull... three way instead of two way split.
So it might look like:
press-bench-dip-triceps isolation/squat-leg press-lunges-calf exercise/deadlift-row-chin-curl.

And after a while working on that you might want to focus a bit more on your shoulders and hamstrings, for example. So then you go to a 4 or 5-way split:
(chest and triceps)-incline bench, db flat bench, dips, tricep extensions, pushdowns. (Back and biceps)-deadlift, db row, shrugs, pullups, curls, hammer curls. (Shoulders)-high incline press, seated dumbbell press, side lateral raises, bent over laterals. (Legs)-front squats, leg presses, lunges, leg curls, leg extensions, calves.
And there you have it, bodybuilding split. You can split it up further from there of course and some do; but that's the normal progression for a gym rat--start out full body, end up with a split variant.

So (this is getting long now, haha) now for an example of how an athlete might train. Apart from injury prevention/prehab work, that can be added in warmups or cooldown, an athlete just has to build strength and conditioning as general phenomenons. Size can be gained by focusing on altering an athlete's diet instead of wiping them out in the gym; and there's no need to worry about lockout work for bench if you're not stepping on a PL platform, or how capped your delts look, or your form in the split snatch. A thrower has to be big and strong and powerful so he'll be incorporating OL and PL type lifts. But he doesn't have the time to develop the skills of an olympic lifter. He wants to lift heavy and get big, too, but can't be too worn out from training cause he has to go throw shot every afternoon and do some running to stay conditioned. Thus, he'll do either a very simple split or a full body program maybe 2-3 days a week, something like this:
Muscle snatch
Behind-neck push press
Box squat
Power clean
Cheat curl

I've seen others that have a more 'grind' instead of 'power' look to them, maybe
Front squat
incline bench
bent row
snatch grip deadlift

And you can throw some unilateral work in there if he needs it. So he'd lift heavy, on basic lifts, but avoid variants that take a lot of skill (box squat instead of PL style parallel squat because he's tall and can't be bothered to hit depth, muscle snatch instead of squat snatch because he doesn't want to learn the full lift variant, etc.) and he'll lift for a few sets of low reps so as not to tire himself out. He'll end up pretty strong after 10 years of doing that if he stays consistent, no bells or whistles necessary... I guess with this specific example, it helps that most throwers are huge, tall, big wristed guys who gain strength pretty easily.

Now, to look at the schedule or 'split' of a strength athlete:
A powerlifter has the same issue with recovery as a bodybuilder because he can't just 'do the lifts', he has to worry about accessories, fixing weak points, and so on. So his routine will probably end up pretty similar to mr. tanning lotion we mentioned above:
Squat day--squats, front squats, unilateral leg work, calves/hams/adductors for injury prevention
Bench day--bench, dumbbell bench or incline bench, heavy tricep work, rotator cuffs etc. for prehab
Deadlift day--deadlift, rows and/or shrugs, pullups, hyperextensions, maybe curls or whatever
Bench day--close grip bench, overhead press variant, cheat laterals, front delt work

That's the typical 'Western' PL split. Very intensity based, focused on getting bigger and stronger. Linear cycles for the big lifts, a few heavy sets of 10-20 on assistance work to help with the main lift.

An 'Eastern' PL split would involve bench and squat at least 3 days a week, usually, sometimes twice a day with overhead work or front squats on the extra sessions. Deadlifts only once maybe but sometimes powercleans or whatnot. To be honest I'm a little hazy on what some of these programs entail but that's the jist of it.
An olympic lifter training 'bulgarian style' would probably snatch, clean and jerk, and either front or overhead squat every single day to a 'working max' and then follow up with a bunch of backoff sets in the 70-90% range, singles or doubles. He'd have multiple daily sessions, each one focusing on one lift variant. He'd work up to a real max (probably trying to go after a missed attempt several times in a row) every week or every other week, and wouldn't really do any other training, just those 4 lifts. He'd also do loads of steroids.
An olympic lifter training 'chinese style' would do the classic lifts 3-4 days a week and do stretching, prehab, massage, running, handbalancing, and jumping/plyos every day. He'd also do very light isolation work for high reps as a means of recovery; and do a ton of heavy assistance work very often to fix his weak spots. The lifts themselves really are just practice, the base of strength is built with clean and snatch grip high pulls and deadlifts, power cleans, muscle snatches, snatches and cleans off blocks, military and bench presses, dumbbell rows, power shrugs, front and back squats, bottoms-up overhead squats, partial front squats, partial push jerks, push presses, behind-neck push presses... the list goes on. The Chinese (and Russians, now) really aren't 'groove' lifting specialists like the bulgarians. They get strong ALL over and get pretty big, too. Chinese lifters are shorter in general just because they're heavily muscled enough to have 'grown into' the next weightclass up.
The above steroid comment was tongue in cheek, but these guys are all using. The olympic tests are a bit more stringent now but the lifters are definitely 'on', at least in the offseason.

Now, in reality it's actually more complex than that--there are far too many variables to really take into account simultaneously here. The key is that all the best lifters get into the gym pretty often and work very hard. I realize that's a huge wall of text but hopefully it's some useful info for you, or at least a fun read....
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Re: Madmans' first log 2013

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