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strength training vs. conditioning

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strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:13 am

i'm sorry but i still don't understand what these 2 disciplines entail. if the purpose of strength training is to get stronger, does that mean that strength training has little to do with getting fit? and i know that the main :) purpose of conditioning is not to get stronger. heck i don't even know what the purpose is besides getting in shape. and am i correct in understanding that strength training involves usually 2-3 sets per exercise with long wait times in between and conditioning is more based on high sets with high repetitions and little rest in between sets emphasizing more on stamina? so is it true that a man who only strength trains will never be in the best shape of his life while the person who only does conditioning will never reach the peak of his strength?

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by tilles on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:57 am

Playa wrote:so is it true that a man who only strength trains will never be in the best shape of his life while the person who only does conditioning will never reach the peak of his strength?

You can't have it all...if you focus on one thing something else will suffer. That's not only the case with training...it actually applies to life in general. You just have to set your priorities.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by trainingforlife on Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:41 pm

Good Luck


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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by tilles on Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:46 pm

I didn't mean that you can't do both or that it is impossible to be 'fit' and have a decent amount of strength. Just wanted to say that as soon as you do several 'types' of training you can't focus on one quality as if you would only train that one quality.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:41 pm

interesting. so i take it that "conditioning" in your view refers to cardio?
but my main question is, can you get down to 12% bodyfat just by doing strength training? it's just that strength is what i want to focus on the most right now but i'm at 20% bodyfat and i want to to lose weight. if that's the case, do i have to do some sort of conditioning also? i heard that proper strength training leads to more muscle mass and more muscle leads to faster metabolism, resulting in more calories burned. but the only time that intensity is high during strength training is when you are doing the set. i really have no idea. i have 2 goals. to get stronger and lose weight. is weightloss that difficult if you only strength train?

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Rix on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:44 pm

Strength training = Strong mo' fluffer

Condition training = Athletic

Just depends what you wanna do to be honest. You can do both, but like TFL said, you wont be amazing at any of them. you'll be a jack of all trades rather than a specialist. if you purely focus on one, then you will be awsome at it, but you may suffer on with the other one. In my opinion that is better.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Iliander on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:46 pm

Playa wrote:interesting. so i take it that "conditioning" in your view refers to cardio?
but my main question is, can you get down to 12% bodyfat just by doing strength training? it's just that strength is what i want to focus on the most right now but i'm at 20% bodyfat and i want to to lose weight. if that's the case, do i have to do some sort of conditioning also? i heard that proper strength training leads to more muscle mass and more muscle leads to faster metabolism, resulting in more calories burned. but the only time that intensity is high during strength training is when you are doing the set. i really have no idea. i have 2 goals. to get stronger and lose weight. is weightloss that difficult if you only strength train?
INTENSITY is what burns fat. AND builds muscle, as long as you recover properly.

Just do the strength training mate, trust me your endurance will be fine. I haven't done push-ups in ages but I'm sure I can do at least 100 reps in a set (I'm not sure though, forgive me if I'm wrong) just from strength exercises.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Rix on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:48 pm

Doing a 5x5 program and having a solid diet will definite get you down
to 12%bf... over time tho! I recon if you was purely doing strength
training, when you get down to 12% bf you will look a lot better than a
conditioned person at 12% alot harder. Have a bit more density to
yourself.

Light cardio will keep you in shape, like walking or biking.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Dave on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:54 pm

My pushups also increase as my strength increases.

Iliander wrote:INTENSITY is what burns fat. AND builds muscle, as long as you recover properly.

Have you seen Elliott's video where he basically says something like: "Do your strength training, and then go for a half hour walk and you'll get shredded"?
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Dave on Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:55 pm

Rixstar wrote:Doing a 5x5 program and having a solid diet will definite get you down
to 12%bf... over time tho! I recon if you was purely doing strength
training, when you get down to 12% bf you will look a lot better than a
conditioned person at 12% alot harder. Have a bit more density to
yourself.

Light cardio will keep you in shape, like walking or biking.

All this. :^:
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:49 pm

so strength training combined with eating healthy and light cardio CAN get me to 12% bodyfat. as for my athleticism, i am not worried. i take one week off of strength training every 2 weeks just to do high intensity plyometrics and practicing flips and kicks. there is only one aspect of fitness that i never focus on and that is muscular endurance. i don't even know how to train exclusively for endurance. do you just drop down and do as many pushups as you can to failure or something? how the hell do you train for muscular endurance?

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Rix on Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:01 pm

Yeah definite mate, i would do that every 4-6 weeks after strength training, dont interrupt strength training on purpose. just lots of sets.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by trainingforlife on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:10 pm

Playa wrote:interesting. so i take it that "conditioning" in your view refers to cardio?
but my main question is, can you get down to 12% bodyfat just by doing strength training? it's just that strength is what i want to focus on the most right now but i'm at 20% bodyfat and i want to to lose weight. if that's the case, do i have to do some sort of conditioning also? i heard that proper strength training leads to more muscle mass and more muscle leads to faster metabolism, resulting in more calories burned. but the only time that intensity is high during strength training is when you are doing the set. i really have no idea. i have 2 goals. to get stronger and lose weight. is weightloss that difficult if you only strength train?

At one time I was into body building and the way I learned and its still the same way today,with the pro's. There are three stages of body building
1. Where you are currently at. maybe just coming off stage.
2. A bulking stage where you add as much mass as you can. Yes,some will be fat. when most are their strongest,but also the heaviest.
3. Leaning out or a cut stage and that is what you see in book,magazines and on TV. When most body builders are the weakest, but also the most cut.

If you dont want to bulk the you go from 1 -3 and skip 2.

If I were you I would use the winter month to add weight and the other month to lean out. You may want to use the first day of summer break as the date you want to be the leanest and use mid-winter as you heaviest day of the year. Thats what I did. Now when I was in the Army I went from 145 to a ripped 180 in 13 weeks of basic. Remember I workout out for 12 hours (0600-1800) 5 day a week. We also had to get smoked from time to time in the middle of the night, sometime hours at a time. Again this is all from my life and the way I did things.

Here is another way I see it
Triathletes-ok endurance & cardio,lean,some what fast. Also weak when it comes to gym lifts.
Gymnast-Good cardio,some what good endurance,fast from sprints and normally have great gyms lifts without trying.
Body builders- No real endurance or cardio, not very fast,strong as hell off season weak when cutting.
CrossFitters-Good to great endurance,good cardio from sprint, good gym lifts and most are lean.
Powerlifter-Little to no cardio or endurance, master at gym lifts most are not lean.

In my book why not do CrossFit,Gymnast's & Powerlifting end results. Not great at any one thing,but good at basic gymnast movements,good at Oly lifts,powerlifting movements,sprints & over all good cardio and endurance. Again not great at any one thing,but over all better then most others that only do one thing.


Good luck on all your training and goals.

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by TheMasterKey on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:52 pm

trainingforlife wrote:Here is another way I see it
Triathletes-ok endurance & cardio,lean,some what fast. Also weak when it comes to gym lifts.
Gymnast-Good cardio,some what good endurance,fast from sprints and normally have great gyms lifts without trying.
Body builders- No real endurance or cardio, not very fast,strong as hell off season weak when cutting.
CrossFitters-Good to great endurance,good cardio from sprint, good gym lifts and most are lean.
Powerlifter-Little to no cardio or endurance, master at gym lifts most are not lean.

A triathlete has ok endurance, but a crossfitter has good to great endurance?

I know you're into crossfit, but this is borderline trolling.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by trainingforlife on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:15 pm

Good Luck


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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by trainingforlife on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:24 pm

I re-track my posts


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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Rix on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:37 pm

TFL, I generally agree with most things you say, but Triathletes/iron men, have THE BEST Cardio of probly any one in the world, their endurance would destroy probly any crossfitter. I know you like your metacon stuff and cross fit stuff but come on man, your becoming an Elitist. Cross fit gave birth to pregnant women doing butterfly pull ups, it has awful aspects of it. Its good dont get me wrong, but not great. I know its just your opinion and i respect it but we have gone way off topic to be honest.


Anyway i think dave mentioned this vid

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by trainingforlife on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:47 pm

Sorry this one too.

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by ranger_x3 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:42 pm

Now while I don't really like cross-fit much, zazen does have a point.

Triathletes, while they do have great conditioning, are usually specialized into their 3 events of running, biking, and swimming. Greek is on another level where he has mastered the like of burpees, planks, and really any of the "how many of these can you do in an hour" challenges. I have not personally seen another triathlete attempt to do anything he does.

For example with me as a runner, at my peak endurance ability for running I attempted to do 100 burpees for time. It took me 9:30 and it kicked my ass. But that's because I was specialized to running fast and far, not doing burpees.

Across a broad spectrum of exercises, someone who has been doing cross-fit for a while will probably have better overall conditioning than someone who has specialized like a runner or triathlete, but unless they put in the time for training specifically for an event they wouldn't be nearly as competitive on those other fields.

Basically, I don't ever see someone who does purely cross-fit beating me in a race because I train to run. At the same time, if you tossed us into a decathlon where you have running, throwing, jumping, etc. I would probably lose overall because I train to run and they would be able to perform average across the disciplines.

Conditioning is what you make it. If you just want to lose weight and get strong, 5x5 is an excellent option. If you want to run a 20 min 5k, then running would be your measure of conditioning.

Side-note:
Usually I don't speak up about things like this, but I feel it might be necessary. While yes, I agree to a point that some of zazen's comments have been pro cross-fit and could use some toning down, at the same many of you completely denounce his opinions. You cannot say you respect someone's opinion and at the same time call them a troll. It's like saying "no offense" before you tell someone your opinion when in reality you are completely offending the person.

In other words, be level-headed when discussing something, be willing to learn and ask why someone has an opinion, and don't be an arrogant prick because you're behind a keyboard.

End rant, I think I need a snickers.

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Rix on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:49 pm

I didn't call him a troll. To be honest I agreed with his comment he retracted, I do respect his opinions but for this topic we must have playa's abilities in mind and all the comments on crossfir where just unnecessary to me and misplaced. I agree with TFL stuff nearly all te time and I like where he goes with things but certain things I don't agree with and I had to comment. This should of been a much simpler thread. Plugging cross fit all the time can become tiresome. I like tfl's stories but they would be better without a cross fit comparison after them. TFL this is no disrespect to you, you are a beasty guy and no one can take that away from you, I'm just voicing my friendly opinion. I actually look up to your size and strength and started doing gorilla training coz I saw you doing it. No homo. I also agreed with you that we should be doing pistol challenges but as long as everyone can contribute in some way.

Ranger, yes you are right.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by TheMasterKey on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:17 pm

ranger_x3 wrote:Side-note:
Usually I don't speak up about things like this, but I feel it might be necessary. While yes, I agree to a point that some of zazen's comments have been pro cross-fit and could use some toning down, at the same many of you completely denounce his opinions. You cannot say you respect someone's opinion and at the same time call them a troll. It's like saying "no offense" before you tell someone your opinion when in reality you are completely offending the person.

In other words, be level-headed when discussing something, be willing to learn and ask why someone has an opinion, and don't be an arrogant prick because you're behind a keyboard.

End rant, I think I need a snickers.

Who are you talking to?

And Zazen is a big boy, he can "defend" himself.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Dave on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:57 pm

TMK, he is quite clearly talking to you (among others I guess?) when he says "many of you completely denounce his opinions". It's true, you did flatly reject what he said about triathletes.

But cannot have been talking to you when he said "You cannot say you respect someone's opinion and at the same time call them a troll", or "don't be an arrogant prick because you're behind a keyboard." Because you 1) did not say you respected his opinion, 2) did not call TFL a troll (the inference was there but it was borderline and you were obviously not committed to it as an absolute stance), 3) you were not a hypocrite in your post (and ranger's inference in the first statement I quoted would seem to be that anyone who says both in the same breath is a hypocrite), and 4) you did not act like a prick.

He was most likely just ranting in general, and I point to "End rant" as exhibit A in support of my assertion. So let's all keep as cool as we've been up to now. 8)
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by itlives on Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:40 am

All I can add is -
When I first started BWE, I was in terrible shape. Doing BW only, and doing it hard (and sometimes fast for an old guy) got me in great shape.
Then, I noticed other people doing weights (Fatman, Cheese, Dave, n8tive and others). I tried weights and even though I was in great shape, I was WEAK.
I think conditioning and weights compliment each other. Do both.
I think as Ido Portal says "It's about movement".

That's something I'm going to be working on.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Journeyman on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:41 am

trainingforlife wrote:
Playa wrote:interesting. so i take it that "conditioning" in your view refers to cardio?
but my main question is, can you get down to 12% bodyfat just by doing strength training? it's just that strength is what i want to focus on the most right now but i'm at 20% bodyfat and i want to to lose weight. if that's the case, do i have to do some sort of conditioning also? i heard that proper strength training leads to more muscle mass and more muscle leads to faster metabolism, resulting in more calories burned. but the only time that intensity is high during strength training is when you are doing the set. i really have no idea. i have 2 goals. to get stronger and lose weight. is weightloss that difficult if you only strength train?

At one time I was into body building and the way I learned and its still the same way today,with the pro's. There are three stages of body building
1. Where you are currently at. maybe just coming off stage.
2. A bulking stage where you add as much mass as you can. Yes,some will be fat. when most are their strongest,but also the heaviest.
3. Leaning out or a cut stage and that is what you see in book,magazines and on TV. When most body builders are the weakest, but also the most cut.

If you dont want to bulk the you go from 1 -3 and skip 2.

If I were you I would use the winter month to add weight and the other month to lean out. You may want to use the first day of summer break as the date you want to be the leanest and use mid-winter as you heaviest day of the year. Thats what I did. Now when I was in the Army I went from 145 to a ripped 180 in 13 weeks of basic. Remember I workout out for 12 hours (0600-1800) 5 day a week. We also had to get smoked from time to time in the middle of the night, sometime hours at a time. Again this is all from my life and the way I did things.

Here is another way I see it
Triathletes-ok endurance & cardio,lean,some what fast. Also weak when it comes to gym lifts.
Gymnast-Good cardio,some what good endurance,fast from sprints and normally have great gyms lifts without trying.
Body builders- No real endurance or cardio, not very fast,strong as hell off season weak when cutting.
CrossFitters-Good to great endurance,good cardio from sprint, good gym lifts and most are lean.
Powerlifter-Little to no cardio or endurance, master at gym lifts most are not lean.

In my book why not do CrossFit,Gymnast's & Powerlifting end results. Not great at any one thing,but good at basic gymnast movements,good at Oly lifts,powerlifting movements,sprints & over all good cardio and endurance. Again not great at any one thing,but over all better then most others that only do one thing.


Good luck on all your training and goals.
I think that what you said about onseason/offseason bodybuilders is spot on. Most do have surprisingly good endurance though, especially the natural ones, and many hold a very very good level of strength even a week or 2 out from a competition. In fact, for most it's a matter of pride that they can do really good gym lifts less than a month out while dieting etc.
It's really hard to generalize 'types' like you did above. Some triathletes are very very strong, because they don't just train for triathlons. Almost all gymnasts have insane endurance and conditioning levels--read Coach Summer's book--just from their extremely high volume of overall training, if nothing else. I would also not compare the 'cardio' one gets from sprints to the 'cardio' that one gets from running marathons, the two are entirely different and have basically no carryover. Also, most crossfitters as a group are quite weak except the ones who are actually out and winning competitions, and most of those are ex-strongmen/powerlifters/Olifters who built that base of strength FIRST, while concentrating mainly on that one thing, then did the other stuff later.
You can't compare anyone's strength in the powerlifts, who is not a powerlifter (whether Xfitter or gymnast or whatever) to an actual top-tier powerlifter. They are worlds apart. We have raw lifters in the 165s deadlifting 7 plates and benching in the mid-4s, and the number of 800+ deadlifts and 6-700 squats in the 275s and 242s is growing very fast. Most crossfitters, even the ones known for their strength at the top of their game (froning, khalipa, lipson, etc.) would get smashed in powerlifting even by lightweights. Just look up joe morrow, richard hawthorne, tony conyers, arkady shaloha, and vashon perryman.
And, almost all the powerlifters who actually win meets are VERY lean, except for the superheavyweights.

Again, we all know you like crossfit and there's nothing wrong with that (despite what some here seem to think) even if I disagree with you, but let's get real here.

-edit-
just looked up the numbers. Froning apparently squats 445 and deadlifts 545 @ 195, which is darn good, but it can't hold a candle to actual powerlifting champions. Those are both below the completely raw (wrapless) squat and deadlift records for men in the 123 pound class. There are 150 pound girls who can deadlift almost as much as he can, if we're comparing top athletes in each discipline.
Now, I personally do like the all-rounder approach, but again, we need to keep some perspective here. You won't get near the top in anything unless you specialize. Just like you can't compare anything a crossfitter does with their own weight to something a gymnast can do. The 'we are olympic lifters combined with gymnasts' is total BS.... Some of the bigger guys do have good OL totals, especially the ones who (surprise, surprise) actually competed in OL before CF... but no one is doing crosses or planches or whatnot. And, I know we've argued methodologies before, but the CF games winners don't even follow the WODs, they essentially train for strength with a lot of event-specific conditioning training thrown in, almost like strongman competitors. And since 'randomization, not specialization' is such a big part of crossfit's mantra... as I've said many times before, I'd argue that the winners don't even train crossfit, thus proving that specialization > generalization even in the 'games' themselves.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Journeyman on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:37 am

...Got some vids just because. Lotta under-181 guys pushing the envelope these days.

Conyers and Morrow:

Morrow does lightweight bodybuilding as well.

Hawthorne:


He's deadlifted something like 610x4 with single ply gear and has insane 40 time/vertical jump as well

'C&P' Lewis:


Vashon Perryman:

A hair high maybe but whatever, that's triple bodyweight.


'Football cleans' with 305


-Not fat (obviously, especially being lightweights)
-Strong at 1RMs but also good at reps, many of them
-Most are very explosive/good sprinters and jumpers, perryman and hawthorne are especially athletic and are very well conditioned, I think both of them do NFL combine-type training on the side.
-You can basically compare the crossfit games winners' lifting, most of them weighing 180-200, on a really really good day, pretty favorably with 129-lb powerlifters.

It's the same for O-lifters.
Here's dmitry klokov, about the same weight as khalipa here, maybe a few kg heavier. Power clean and strict pressing khalipa's max C&J.


And here's a 170-pound chinese champ doing a squat snatch with froning's max C&J:


And obviously you can't compare them with gymnasts, here's someone who's very much on the heavy side for a gymnast (~160 or so)... you won't see any crossfit competitor coming within light years of this:


Now, all that said. I think that the Games winners are great athletes. But again, they don't really use 'crossfit' methods, since they train specifically for the events and lifts, not randomly following WODs. Also, they are not world class athletes nor can they be even compared to them; certainly not anything justifying the 'crossfitter > lifter/gymnast/thrower' BS that gets thrown around these days. Looking at Games winners stats it seems that:
-They all weigh 180-220
-3/4/5 on bench/squat/dead, maybe a little heavier--so, I'd say recreational level strength on the powerlifts. They won't be winning even a state meet if they could somehow compete 2-3 weightclasses down.
-knowledge of O-lifts, maybe not great technique but better than most Xfitters, can maybe total 130/170kg or so... again, would maybe be equal to a regional lifter a few weightclasses lower than them, in a competition.
-Running ability roughly equal with a halfway decent highschool male athlete (60s 400m, 21.00 5k)... to be honest, I am disappoint.
-Good conditioning base with rowing, etc. but again, nothing competitive
-good at kipping the absolute sh!t out of pullups
-Work their @sses off (they do all train very very hard, no doubt)
-Don't follow mainsite WODs
-base in something OTHER than crossfit (football, rugby, OL, strongman, whatever)

So there's your breakdown.
This was actually pretty interesting to take an hour and look through, I wasn't really sure where the top Xfit guys are at... well, now I know. About where I thought in terms of strength, and lower on conditioning. I know the idea is that they're all rounders and I'm all for that, but if you lose to state or regional recreational specialists in all your different categories (and there aren't that many--Olifting+squat/deadlift, running or rowing, and what, kipping calisthenics?) you are definitely not 'ELITE' or a world class athlete. Impressive, yeah, but nothing earth shattering.

/story there, as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by itlives on Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:15 pm

Good presentation Jman. You should go into law!
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by GreekPT on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:48 pm

Back to the OP's question/s in post #5, cuz some people on here are batsh!t stupid with their Opinions on certain topics......

Playa - most of your 'fat loss' is going to happen in the kitchen, not in the gym. Are you eating super cleanly? NO processed sugar, no bad fats, no empty calories, which is pretty much anything white (bread/rice). If it comes out of a package, you pretty much shouldn't be eating it, if you're really serious about cutting the fat. You can research this stuff too, but you should plan on lots of lean (organic FTW) chicken breasts, fish, extra lean cuts of meat, and veggies..and good fats: avocados, EVOO and moderate amount of nuts, as they're very high in calories. You need lots of healthy fiber too. It's easy to say you want to get to X% bodyfat, but having the discipline to do the work is entirely something else.

I can't advise you on lifting such as 5x5 or some of the stuff the others on here do because I pretty much rarely touch a weight. But I can "work out" for a dozen or so hours straight, with only stopping to pee, or I can swing a 16lb sledge into concrete for a few hours pretty much non-stop. So what's more important, big pretty muscles and being able to squat 600lbs or the ability to USE your body to its potential every day? That is a different answer for every one.

Oh one last thing, in the grand scheme of how many calories you burn in a day, you're not going to burn that many with a short weight lifting routine vs. lots of HIIT or a 3hour hike up a mountain.....wearing a weighted vest. You need muscles, don't get me wrong, but you also need to burn a LOT of calories to drop 40% of your body fat.

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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by itlives on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:45 pm

Good points ExperiencedPT !
I especially like -

Most of your 'fat loss' is going to happen in the kitchen, not in the gym. - GreekPT

So true!
You can't out workout a bad diet.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Dave on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:31 pm

GreekPT wrote:most of your 'fat loss' is going to happen in the kitchen, not in the gym.

This is pretty much a given, of course, but it does bear repeating.
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Re: strength training vs. conditioning

Post by Guest on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:39 pm

this is some good crap. thanks everyone.

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