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Am i just too stubborn?

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Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Guitar_maniac on Tue May 28, 2013 9:39 am

After finishing my deadlift sets today, started talking with some random guy at the gym. He gave me tips about choosing the right bars for lifting, magnesium etc. I know those, but somehow it seem's like cheating in my mind, and i refuse to train like that.

I'm having this issue about my fingers being too weak, i do 8 reps with about 115kg on deadlift, and fingers feel pretty weak/are giving up on the last reps, so of course i stay on that weight till my fingers catch up (i also train them with fingertip pushups/grip work).
I lift with both palms facing away, since i feel it trains my grip better. This random guy said that i should use magnesium, better bar and straps cause i could get a lot more weight up. I tried to say that i don't want to use any help, i wan't to get it all by myself, i don't see any sense lifting huge amounts of weight with help since i aren't competing. And in real life, considering my bouncer work, i need all the strength i can get.

While it's true that lifting bigger amount with straps etc wuold help my grip too, but i don't know, don't feel right.

What are your opinions? Anyone else think like this?
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Rix on Tue May 28, 2013 12:48 pm

May aswell. Not really cheating just enabling you to lift more weight for potentially more gains. Up to you, either way is good. But it's like you wouldn't do something with bad form so you may aswell do it proper proply. I don't know really haha JMO
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Journeyman on Tue May 28, 2013 2:33 pm

"Am I too stubborn?"

-Yes.
-You should use chalk if you can be bothered to get it. Would you go rock climbing without chalk? Same idea. It's not cheating, it's something you do to make your training more efficient, like wearing flat-soled shoes or going barefoot instead of wearing running shoes.
-Straps aren't necessary unless you want to do superheavy shrugs and rack pulls. If you're a bouncer those might be a good idea, bulking up the neck and traps/upper back. Using straps will not help with your grip strength.
-Palms facing away (curl grip) is something I've tried but you should probably use a pronated (pullup or double overhand) grip. When the weight gets too heavy, switch to a mixed grip--one hand over, one hand under.
-If you're concerned about grip strength hold the last rep of your last big set for as long as you can at the top. Add more pull-specific grip work. Fingertip pushups won't do anything for your pulling power. One armed bar hangs will, as will very high reps of shrugs, double overhand grip, with a light weight. (Say, 135).
-Try to get over a double bodyweight deadlift as quickly as possible. Anyone and everyone can do it.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by CDL2042 on Tue May 28, 2013 2:34 pm

I always hit the heavy bag with no gloves on. I guess I figure if I ever have to throw a punch I probably won't be wearing gloves, so why train with them.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Dave on Tue May 28, 2013 2:52 pm

My opinion:

Get chalk
Use double overhand
Get chalk
Feel free to use straps later in the session any time you want to do heavy snatch grip deadlifts or huge volume on any other deadlifts or if you think you can hit a max single where your only weak link is grip
Get chalk
Use double overhand


Last edited by Dave.cyco on Tue May 28, 2013 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Fatman on Tue May 28, 2013 2:52 pm

Lift your warmup sets double overhand.

Do some double overhand timed holds in the finishing position of the DL.

Use straps for shrugs and stuff like snatch-grip DLs, Romanian DLs, etc.

I don't use straps for DLs, but I don't think they weaken the grip (unless you strap up for EVERY set or something). If you think about it, very few deadlifts fail due to grip issues, and almost everyone can rack pull (above knees) a weight well in excess of their best DL. So maybe it would be good to finish your non-strapped sets, put on the straps, add some weight and crank out an extra set or two.

Also the few times I did try straps when DLing I found them no more effective than chalk for improving the grip. So chalk fer shure. Straps allow you to lift double OH, though, which I find to be much more natural than mixed grip.


Last edited by Fatman on Tue May 28, 2013 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Dave on Tue May 28, 2013 2:54 pm

Grip is usually the first thing to give out for me. But I tend to do fairly high volume when I do ANYTHING, so that's probably why.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Fatman on Tue May 28, 2013 2:57 pm

Dave.cyco wrote:Grip is usually the first thing to give out for me. But I tend to do fairly high volume when I do ANYTHING, so that's probably why.

Yes for repetition work, but I meant max efforts.

Maybe I'll run into grip issues once I'm pulling more weight, but for now it doesn't seem to be an issue.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Journeyman on Tue May 28, 2013 6:04 pm

Fatman wrote:Straps allow you to lift double OH, though, which I find to be much more natural than mixed grip.

This is important to consider too, if you want to avoid bicep tears once you get over, say, 2.5x bodyweight. Underhand grip+bent arms is usually what results in bicep tears, and I've been guilty of that myself.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Bissen on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:23 am

It's like using spiked boots for soccer than normal sneakers.

I personally sweat like a horse during my workouts, and gripping for deadlifts and pullups suck without magnesium. I have one of those little handy balls.

Also, on deadlifts, I actually use a hook grip; got used to it during my short time O-lifting :P
I don't really like the mixed grip.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by trainingforlife on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:39 am

I would not worry about a special type of bar,chalk or straps because IMO if you cant grip it you should not be lifting it. What I would do it grip work & forearm workouts. To better my grip I do thumbless dead lifts. Meaning I pull light to heavy loads with both hand palmes facing the body with no thumbs around the bar,also called a false grip. I do not let the bar hang in my finger tips instead I pull the weight as close to the palm as I can. I also at one time used CoC grippers (before I lost them). One other thing I have been doing is sand bag work. Griping the sand bag for different movements is great for strength,grip and toughing up the hands. BTW I am just short of having 14inch forearms, if that shows any thing about my training?

On the grip trainers. I had the "trainer" which takes 100lb to close. I was able to do 30-40 reps on each hand before I misplaced it. Hope that helps if you think about buying one.

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Main/captainsofcrush.html


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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Bissen on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:59 am

trainingforlife wrote:I would not worry about a special type of bar,chalk or straps because IMO if you cant grip it you should not be lifting it. What I would do it grip work & forearm workouts. To better my grip I do thumbless dead lifts. Meaning I pull light to heavy loads with both hand palmes facing the body with no thumbs around the bar,also called a false grip. I do not let the bar hang in my finger tips instead I pull the weight as close to the palm as I can. I also at one time used CoC grippers (before I lost them). One other thing I have been doing is sand bag work. Griping the sand bag for different movements is great for strength,grip and toughing up the hands. BTW I am just short of having 14inch forearms, if that shows any thing about my training?

On the grip trainers. I had the "trainer" which takes 100lb to close. I was able to do 30-40 reps on each hand before I misplaced it. Hope that helps if you think about buying one.

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Main/captainsofcrush.html


I dare say that's a close to ridiculous statement. The straps I can somewhat agree with - if you use them all the time. However, what kind of climate do you train in? Have you ever tried lifting much of anything with hands soaked in sweat?
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by trainingforlife on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:15 am

BISSEN- to answer your questions
1.what kind of climate do you train in?
I lived most my life in south texas where it get 100+ in the summer
I have also live in the new york snow belt, so I think its safe to say I have trained in all climates. I have also done amateur strongman & high land games. Which are done out doors with no straps or chalk.

2.Have you ever tried lifting much of anything with hands soaked in sweat?
Why yes. Yes, I have.

Here is my its not a ridiculous statement
When you use a additive live straps or chalk you weaken your grip. Which in return makes that body part weak and unable to handle X work load. Now is it okay to use them both every now any then yes, but DONT train 100% with them. If you always use straps or chalk (key word always) your work loads will go up, but your grip and forearms will have no reason to become stronger. Train your weakness not baby sit them with straps and chalk.
ALSO LIFE DOES NOT COME WITH CHALK AND STRAPS

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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Bissen on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:28 am

Let me change "ridiculous" to "silly", then.

Let me add that I'm a great advocate of grip training. I get plenty of that with my gymnastic rings training. But taking a fall because your hands got sweaty is just super uncool.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Dave on Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:42 am

Bissen wrote:Let me change "ridiculous" to "silly", then.

Well you didn't really change it all that much then did you. ;)

Let me add that I'm a great advocate of grip training. I get plenty of that with my gymnastic rings training. But taking a fall because your hands got sweaty is just super uncool.

Our friend TFL was not talking about ring work, and I'm sure he'll agree with you when it comes to that because it is a safety consideration.

I would not worry about a special type of bar,chalk or straps because IMO if you cant grip it you should not be lifting it.

It's his opinion. Fine. But to imply chalk is a grip booster is (yes I know you didn't exactly say that Zazen, just hear me out), in my opinion, completely wrong. Chalk does NOT make lifting a heavy weight easier. All it does is keep your hands dry so you can lift it more times without slipping. You can lift no more with chalk than you can with dry, chalk free hands.

ALSO LIFE DOES NOT COME WITH CHALK AND STRAPS

Whose life? Mine does, at least when I'm at the gym or in my basement. ;) Elsewhere it does not, this is true. And it doesn't come with barbells either.

if you cant grip it you should not be lifting it.

This is also just an opinion. There's no need to get offended by it. Obviously this statement implies a prioritization of hand strength over posterior chain or trap development, and if Zazen wants to never let his hands be the weak link in the chain that's fine. According to his statement, it seems like his opinion is that if I can't grip 495 pounds I should not be lifting it, because his opinion seems to be that my hands should always be as strong and developed as the rest of me. But I disagree in some cases, so I use straps for big shrugs, as well I should because my goals and priorities are mine and not his, and the parts that respond well to such stimuli should not, IMO, be caused to wait for my grip to catch up, especially when my grip is trained in other ways (e.g. USA pullups, rows, frequent double overhand deadlifting).
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Bissen on Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:44 pm

Well, to me "ridiculous" is a lot stronger than "silly", which makes quite a difference to me :P
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by trainingforlife on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:35 pm

Dave & Bissen: Yes, safety first when it comes to grip and arial maneuvers.

I have not used strips in 10 years of lifting. The way I learned to lift is it is okay to use both sometime, but dont focus your whole training program on the ability to lift with them.

I am not offended lol IMO is just how I type imo. I was not yelling or being offended. I still think one should train grip when it comes to lifting. I also thing no one should be doing a larger load on shrugs then they can dead lift or squat. Again, IMO your traps should not be stronger then your posterior chain. Thats anyone not pointed at your dave or anyone person. As for life does not come with chalk and straps. We all know I think the gym should not be the only place you train at. One finally thought is when I say IMO thats just it. I am not saying the way someone trains,lifts or workouts is incorrect. If I come off that way I apologize. As the quotes says everything works till it doesn't work any more (or something like that lol)


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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Dave on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:24 am

You had me at hello. ;)
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Fatman on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:38 pm

Dave wrote:According to his statement, it seems like his opinion is that if I can't grip 495 pounds I should not be lifting it, because his opinion seems to be that my hands should always be as strong and developed as the rest of me.

But you probably can grip 495 pounds - if you tried to rack pull that weight, you'd most likely succeed. The fact that you can't deadlift 495 pounds (at least not for a couple more months :eyebrows: ) doesn't mean your grip is incapable of handling that weight.

So you're both right.
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Re: Am i just too stubborn?

Post by Journeyman on Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:13 am

I'm a bit late to this party, but:

trainingforlife wrote:
When you use a additive live straps or chalk you weaken your grip

Not really. If you use straps properly, with your thumb still around the bar and gripping hard, you're still lifting, with a double overhand grip, to the maximum extent of your ability. The straps transfer the rest to your wrists. But they do not 'make your hands weaker' if you use them, especially if you use them only sometimes. Also, straps can save your hands. Tearing calluses is no fun and while I don't do it anymore, I've done high volume pulling workouts including heavy deadlifts, deadlift variants, heavy weighted chins, bent rows, then bodyweight pullups and shrugs, and believe me my hands were incredibly beat up at the end. You can't expect your hands to be 'equal in strength and endurance' to all your back muscles put together... if you keep doing shrugs even after the rest of your back is tired from deadlifts and rows, it ain't sensible to expect your hands to keep up.
Chalk, I think, just keeps you from worrying about wet hands, or crap knurling on the bar, which I'm plagued with. I really do hate the 'real life' argument but I do understand it--I definitely believe in lifting weights yourself. However, climbers use chalk and who knows, in 'real life' you might get stuck without chalk, good climbing shoes and belaying pins/ropes and where will you be? But I can't think of many circumstances where that would be the case. It's the same here with lifting. I can't think of any circumstances where I'd ever have to lift precisely three times my own weight to a standing position from exactly 9 inches off the ground, by holding onto a well-machine steel bar. But that's just me.

Anyway, imo--aids are fine but don't go overboard and remember that you have to be the one doing the lifting to get strong. Also, do whatever gets you the best results, or whatever you have to do to make your training successful.

And x2 on fatman's last statement.
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