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August Challenge???

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August Challenge???

Post by Rix on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:34 pm

Hey, no one has mentioned an August challenge yet?
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Dave on Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:36 pm

Farmer walks.
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Iliander on Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:46 pm

Farmer walks? Meh.



LATERAL RAISES! :mrgreen: 



:neener: :bolt:
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Dave on Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:28 pm

Preacher curlz. :lol!: 
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Journeyman on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:09 am

Strict curls would actually be a cool challenge at some point. Power curls would be even cooler:




Jamie doing them here with reverse grip presses


Martin Rooney doing them with a sprawl

Dan John loves these--'cheat curls', 'power curls', 'curls from the floor' or 'reverse grip cleans'. He thinks they're great for throwers, and anyone who doesn't have the flexibility/coordination for full squat cleans. They're basically the brute version of power cleans, so throwers love them (just like box/front squats, clean pulls, btn push presses, muscle snatches--basically the 'less skill more power' versions of olympic lifts).

Here's ricky bruch doing them:


I've only tried a few times, 'bruch curls', that is--basically a hang clean crossed with a cheat curl. It's a really great exercise. Bodyweight on the bar is a good place to start (or was, for me anyway), I think this was the way that Bill Kazmeier 'curled' 440 for reps at some point.
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Rix on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:59 pm

My vote always goes to Martin Rooney and one of his training for warrior challenges
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Black. on Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:52 pm

Iliander wrote:LATERAL RAISES! :mrgreen: 

:^:  x2
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Dave on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:09 pm

I'm pretty busy with work and the move coming up guys and gals, so can you organize this month without me?
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by trainingforlife on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:35 pm

All these movements will build huge egos,I like that kinda sh!+! Bill Kazmeier 'curled' 440 for reps at some point.That is crazy!!, but I can see it happening because live and in person my buddy A.J's dad curled 315x1. Now it was not pretty, but it was done.

On a totally different note wouldn't these movements be kipping the weight up or cheating to move the object LOL!(had to do it) LOL!

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Re: August Challenge???

Post by trainingforlife on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:39 pm

As for the challenge I would like to see a group of movements done for time. Maybe a deadlift or odd lift, a plyo movement along with a run/swim/bike or high rep body weight. Just a thought either way good luck to everyone in Aug.

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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Journeyman on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:48 pm

trainingforlife wrote:All these movements will build huge egos,I like that kinda sh!+! Bill Kazmeier 'curled' 440 for reps at some point.That is crazy!!, but I can see it happening because live and in person my buddy A.J's dad curled 315x1. Now it was not pretty, but it was done.

On a totally different note wouldn't these movements be kipping the weight up or cheating to move the object LOL!(had to do it) LOL!  

I mean, not really. It ain't an 'ego lift' since it's not really a curl; any more than the olympic lifts are 'ego' lifts. Again, think of it as a reverse grip hang clean. Not a bicep exercise at all, though the biceps/wrists are definitely more involved than a normal clean.

And before you mention it, :mrgreen: the line I draw between 'kipping' crap and doing, say, the O-lifts, is this: in a kipping pullup, HSPU, whatever, you're using momentum to get yourself from point A to B. You're taking stress off the primary movers by using momentum. In the O-lifts or their 'power' or 'muscle' variants, you are manipulating momentum, but mainly, you're using the power of your own muscles. A properly performed squat clean and jerk, for example, is going to make your legs, back hips, shoulder girdle, midsection, etc. VERY strong and work all those muscles a ton. Kipping something really doesn't work anything, you're just swinging yourself around using pure momentum and no muscle.

Done a certain way, 'power curls' can be seen as a sort of overloading movement, though you have to use less weight for those variants, obviously. Just like a little bit of 'kip' or body english can be used to 'overload' if that's what you want... it just has to be done properly.
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by trainingforlife on Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:17 pm

JMAN you have some great points and I am sure we can go back and forth for days, but I will have to just disagree.  The way I see it is that the ^^^^ says its okay to use a kip,or momentum if you're using an object, but not your body. I see your points on the C&J no arguments there, but momentum is momentum in my world. Also we are not talking "properly performed" or a movement that requires hip extension/flexion we are talking cheating,kipping or heaving, movement vs non-movement and if the momentum generated is useless or helpful in muscle development. I think it does...

Agree to disagree maybe best on this one lol good reply BTW!

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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Journeyman on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:49 pm

trainingforlife wrote: we are talking cheating,kipping or heaving, movement vs non-movement and if the momentum generated is useless or helpful in muscle development. and strength :mrgreen: I think it does...  

Again, depends on the specific exercise. Just doing the classical O-lifts probably won't build a ton of muscle, though once you're throwing around 2.5x + bodyweight you definitely won't be small. Heck, even Taner Sagir has some serious muscle mass, it just isn't in the 'normal' places you'd look (his lower back and hips look deformed, the rest looks skinny).


So clearly, 'momentum' can build plenty of muscle and strength, in the places that are stressed. Which in the classical lifts, is mainly the legs, hips, lower and upper back, etc.

On the other hand, take someone who doesn't just do the classical lifts, but also a metric crap-ton of accessory work, and he'll look very different, even in the same weight class.


I'm not sure exactly where I was going with that comparison... :scratch: but anyway, if you're talking strength and muscle building, overload is the primary thing. More weight, that is. Now, genetics, leverages, drugs, etc. all come into play here, but more weight is the main thing, as long as you're focusing on the targeted muscle. In a power (momentum, if you will) based lift, the prime movers will be the targeted muscles. If you do nothing but snatches, cleans, and front squats, like sagir up there, you'll have a disproportionately large lower body especially around your posterior chain.

In a kipping pullup, there AREN'T any 'prime movers'. You certainly won't gain any muscle on your legs from swinging them back and forth. Now if you're talking about kipping -just enough- to get another rep, and try to work beyond the point of failure, then I suppose that could definitely help. Tom platz did a lot of that for his upper body work and it didn't really work for him. Maybe it would work for other people, idk.

...Now, look at lu xiaojun. Same weightclass as sagir, much more heavily built. He does a ton of accessory work. Snatch and clean pulls from different heights, presses, rows, shrugs, partial front squats, back squats, jerk drives, overhead squats, overhead presses, bodyweight exercises, bench press, everything. He's bigger all around because he's stronger at things other than just the two O-lifts.
(This is what I was talking about a few threads back, btw. Both the above lifters are specialists, but xiaojun, the more modern archetype, is by no means limited to doing just the two lifts--he really is good at darn near everything.)


With a bodybuilding comparison: Dorian Yates is someone who always did everything super-strict. Sure, he'd do drop sets, but he wouldn't cheat on anything. A real stickler for proper form.
Someone like branch warren is the opposite. He 'cheats' on every single set of every single exercise to use more weight. But seriously, looking at the two you couldn't tell their training methods. They both do what works for them. (Obviously yates was more successful, but that's besides the point.)

So, apart from agreeing to disagree :shrug: just like everything else, if you're talking about strength and muscle building whether you do forced, cheated, assisted or whatever reps and whether it helps you really does depend on you. But:

-a full body 'power' exercise will mainly stress the prime movers
-if you only do those exercises, you'll really only see noticeable growth in those prime movers
-crossfit-style kipping on pullups, rows, HSPU, etc does not really involve prime movers, you're swinging/kicking your own bodyweight, something quite impossible to do with a weight; the power has to come from somewhere!

And finally, I wouldn't call power curls a 'cheated' movement because it's not like you're trying to work your arms but using body english to use more weight; it's a lower body power exercise just like cleans or pulls or whatnot, just with a bit more arm involvement, and less of a learning curve (another reason why they're cool in my book--MUCH easier to learn than normal cleans).
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Dave on Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:52 pm

trainingforlife wrote:good reply BTW!

:nod: 
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by trainingforlife on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:07 am

Clearly we see things differently. I enjoyed the read, but for me it still black and white. You used some style of movement to move the body or an object. Again we are not talking hip extension/flexion we are talking about cheating/kipping a movement to get more out of it. It sounds like to me you're comparing a O-lift to a cheating curl,kipping pulling or hitching a weight on the deadlift. Which is not the same because as you noted in the above you're using 'prime movers'. Where I am am talking about doing what is needs to be done to move your body or an object a few more time or in some cases a lot more. i.e by leaning into a curl for leverage ,hitching the weight up on a deadlift or kipping your body in a pull-up. Again nothing to do with a C&J or O-lifts. This will be my last reply on it, because we both have good point IMO, but we are just going to have to disagree. :handshake: :hifive: :clappy: 






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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Rix on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:47 pm

Dave wrote:I'm pretty busy with work and the move coming up guys and gals, so can you organize this month without me?

Ill try to do it this month if thats cool with everyone, and you all vote in the poll
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Dave on Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:06 pm

:up:  Thanks for the help!

trainingforlife wrote:Again we are not talking hip extension/flexion we are talking about cheating/kipping a movement to get more out of it.

Well, to be perfectly accurate, that's what you are talking about.  Jman was talking about power curls/reverse grip cleans.  He was talking about a hip extension movement, as was clear from the videos he posted. You called those movements "kipping", but then you provided videos of a different exercise to argue your point.

trainingforlife wrote:This will be my last reply on it, because we both have good point IMO

I have a better reason:  You're both talking about completely different things. ;)
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Journeyman on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:59 pm

trainingforlife wrote:Where I am am talking about doing what is needs to be done to move your body or an object a few more time or in some cases a lot more. i.e by leaning into a curl for leverage ,hitching the weight up on a deadlift or kipping your body in a pull-up. Again nothing to do with a C&J or O-lifts.

Okay, fine. I was forestalling a potential argument by talking about the O-lifts, haha.

As for kipping, there's a difference between a minor kip in order to get more reps, and, say, 'butterfly kipping' that takes basically all the stress out of the muscles that are 'supposed' to be trained, i.e. lats and upper back.

As for the curls, YOU started talking about kipping/cheating/heaving and ignored the fact that 'power curls' as I said several times, are not a curl at all, but a sort of power clean that has a bit more bicep involvement than usual. The reason I am talking about hip extension and prime movers is because that is the exercise we (supposedly) were talking about at first--the power curl. And you insist on calling it a 'cheated' movement because it's called a 'curl', instead of realizing that it is in fact very different.

Anyway, so yeah, haha. :wave: 

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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Journeyman on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:01 pm

trainingforlife wrote:


As anyone can easily tell, this is an entirely different movement than the one that I posted videos of, that I am suggesting for the 'challenge'. You're substituting what you want to talk about, for what I was talking about (which is fine)--but then directing the response to my original statements anyway, which makes no sense to me... lol.
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Re: August Challenge???

Post by Dave on Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:21 pm

It's called a strawman argument and it is illegal.  Where are the cops when you need them? :police: 
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