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Strength vs Size vs Endurance

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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by squatty on Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:30 pm

My legs are like "I squat, next week I don't fit inside my jeans anymore"
Easy size gains, but not so easy strength gains for me.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by E70 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:10 am

squatty wrote:My legs are like "I squat, next week I don't fit inside my jeans anymore"
Easy size gains, but not so easy strength gains for me.
Sometimes I wish It was like that for me.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:43 am

E70 wrote:
squatty wrote:My legs are like "I squat, next week I don't fit inside my jeans anymore"
Easy size gains, but not so easy strength gains for me.
Sometimes I wish It was like that for me.
I'd rather be all go and no show, if i had to choose one or the other.  And as it turns out, that's almost exactly how I am!
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by E70 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:07 pm


I agree. I'll take strength over size.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:30 pm

Do some pistols, then cycle, then do some Hindu squats lol. Get those quads throbbing.

I'd like to weigh in, I pick endurance over size and strength :p
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:32 pm

Ah but with strength always comes endurance (at least for me).  :mrgreen:
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Iliander on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:04 pm

Dave wrote:Ah but with strength always comes endurance (at least for me).  :mrgreen:
x 2 !

It is endurance of strength, not strength of endurance.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:08 pm

I think I'm the opposite. Lol. I get strength from endurance. I don't do strength training but when I go to lift I can hold my own
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Iliander on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:17 pm

Rix wrote:I think I'm the opposite. Lol. I get strength from endurance. I don't do strength training but when I go to lift I can hold my own
Really? Haha, I think I'm the same as Dave. But I'm not sure.

Being able to do a lot of push-ups (not that much, but decent endurance: 70-80 reps) didn't give me the ability to even do a one arm push-up with bad form; when all I did was push-ups.
When I was doing high volume bodyweight pull-ups I reached high endurance at all the different grips, but my weighted pull-up was still weak.

So training for strength is optimal for me. I always have good endurance when I just train for strength.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:21 pm

Not to mention training for strength takes less time and, to me, feels like a more efficient a means for training in general than doing lots high rep volume.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by TheMasterKey on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:40 pm

Iliander wrote:
Rix wrote:I think I'm the opposite. Lol. I get strength from endurance. I don't do strength training but when I go to lift I can hold my own
Really? Haha, I think I'm the same as Dave. But I'm not sure.

Being able to do a lot of push-ups (not that much, but decent endurance: 70-80 reps) didn't give me the ability to even do a one arm push-up with bad form; when all I did was push-ups.
When I was doing high volume bodyweight pull-ups I reached high endurance at all the different grips, but my weighted pull-up was still weak.

So training for strength is optimal for me. I always have good endurance when I just train for strength.
That's pretty surprising.  

I was able to do a one-arm pushup, when my max set was probably in the 40-50 range.  

And that was without any additional strength training.

Dave wrote:Not to mention training for strength takes less time and, to me, feels like a more efficient a means for training in general than doing lots high rep volume.
That's one of the biggest issues with high volume.  Very time consuming.

Although I recall Ironmunki saying his workouts only took around 1 hour... :shock:
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Iliander on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:45 pm

TheMasterKey wrote:That's pretty surprising.  

I was able to do a one-arm pushup, when my max set was probably in the 40-50 range.  

And that was without any additional strength training.
I just think of the fact that I was still doing my push-ups with elbows flared out back then... maybe that matters.
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Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:59 pm

I quite enjoy alot of volume personal and lots of volume tends to help my weight vest pull ups. Maybe ill get my one arm chin doing lots of volume training :p who knows
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by trainingforlife on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:01 pm

I am greedy I want it all!

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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:11 pm

Strength is the most productive to train, for most people of average size, because it is hardest attribute to gain and thus has greater carryover to many of the others (as posters above have noted).

For larger individuals, endurance training probably helps more with overall fitness and can carry over well to absolute strength if they're moving their own weight around.

As for size, that requires not only overload, increasing strength, but of course also a proper diet, and creation of muscular fatigue... thus, lifting heavy for reps; as pavel says, 'get a pump with a heavy weight'.

Pretty simple. Anyone who thinks you have to choose 'just one' is either specializing too much (unless they compete at a high level), imo.

And anyone who thinks that enormous strength gains can come without size, and vice versa, are just being ridiculous.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:43 pm

TheMasterKey wrote:That's one of the biggest issues with high volume.  Very time consuming.

Although I recall Ironmunki saying his workouts only took around 1 hour... :shock:
And Ironmunki was darn strong too, so which way did the correlation go for him do you suppose?

He did do a lot of high difficulty/tension movements, didn't he...
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by TheMasterKey on Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:43 pm

Dave wrote:
TheMasterKey wrote:That's one of the biggest issues with high volume.  Very time consuming.

Although I recall Ironmunki saying his workouts only took around 1 hour... :shock:
And Ironmunki was darn strong too, so which way did the correlation go for him do you suppose?

He did do a lot of high difficulty/tension movements, didn't he...
If I remember correct, he said he lifted weights for years before really getting into BWE.  

I know he did lots of volume, but could also throw in things like straddle planche pushups.

For anyone who wants to look, here are his old logs from BWC:

iron's execise log

Iron training MMX



:twisted: 
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:54 am

trainingforlife wrote:I am greedy I want it all!
Ding ding ding. Winner lol
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Fatman on Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:04 am

Journeyman wrote:Strength is the most productive to train, for most people of average size, because it is hardest attribute to gain and thus has greater carryover to many of the others (as posters above have noted).
Hardest to gain, and slowest to lose.

Endurance ebbs very quickly if you don't endurance train regularly, and muscular size is easily lost through poor nutrition. But you can take long layoffs from strength training and get back to your pre-layoff levels with minimal preparation time.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:18 pm

^ What Fatman said. That's why it's most valuable to train for, for most people. Of course, base building for strength is important, but strength itself can be an excellent base for endurance or whatever activities you might want to do....

Dave wrote:
TheMasterKey wrote:That's one of the biggest issues with high volume.  Very time consuming.

Although I recall Ironmunki saying his workouts only took around 1 hour... :shock:
And Ironmunki was darn strong too, so which way did the correlation go for him do you suppose?

He did do a lot of high difficulty/tension movements, didn't he...
Yeah. I mean, first off, he was a big guy but certainly not gigantic. A solid 190-200 at, what, 6'2'', isn't otherworldly in terms of size. Secondly, he mainly lifted weights but only shifted over to the high volume bodyweight stuff in 'the last few years', the most recent training when he showed up on the forum.

According to him, he didn't lose or gain size from the bodyweight stuff, but did drop a few pounds of fat. Which is to be expected for high volume training combined with a great diet. I'd be willing to bet that if he lifted again, his arm, leg and low back strength would be way down, at first at least, but overall endurance and shoulder strength would be through the roof just based on what he did do. Not much leg or low back stuff (bodyweight squats and unweighted pistols, no heavy weighted pistols or GHR or anything), but plenty of planche progressions and handstand pushups. And that's probably why he ended up looking the way he did--disproportionately large triceps and shoulders, but relatively smaller legs, forearms, etc.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:38 pm

Strength training FTW then.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:45 pm

I feel left out now. Don't have access to :barbellcurl:
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:49 pm

You will. It won't take you long I'm sure. :)
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:54 pm

Maybe, ill stick to what I know for now and see what that carries over to eventually
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Iliander on Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:23 pm

You don't necessarily need a barbell to train for strength. :) 
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:01 pm

True but I don't have the capacity for progression/s at the moment. Still itching for a OAC
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:36 pm

What do your chin #s look like now, Rix?
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by squatty on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:02 am

But seriously, almost everyone, even those who don't admit it, secretly seek size, right?
I mean even if you train for strength, you're training for strength to get bigger because you've heard you can't get stronger without getting bigger.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:45 am

Journeyman wrote:What do your chin #s look like now, Rix?
I haven't tested my max chins yet but i recon i am around 25~. when i do my 10x10 pull ups as chin ups i hardly rest, 10, wait a few seconds 10 etc etc.

squatty wrote:But seriously, almost everyone, even those who don't admit it, secretly seek size, right?
I mean even if you train for strength, you're training for strength to get bigger because you've heard you can't get stronger without getting bigger.
Not necessarily, im sure men as a primal instinct do welcome size but at the moment i have absolutely no need for size, I'm trying to boost my flexibility, endurance and technique in MA so any additional muscle right now may hinder that. I have even lost a bit of size on my chest and arms since I been duathlon training. That would probly bother 18 year old me but 19 year me has new and better goals. That being said, I almost defiantly will seek more size and strength when I am a bit older.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by trainingforlife on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:10 am

Size matters in life. I would say 90% of the world sees size as something being more useful and more powerful. Size also means fear and respect in a lot of cases.  How many time have you heard someone say "Dang look at that guy he is huge!" or " I am not going to mess with that person look at the size of him!"  Even when it comes to women most men want  a woman that has a nice size butt and /or boobs on them. Even women want a guy that is a bit bigger. They feel protected and I have never heard a women say they want a guy with a little (well you ). Size matters even when it comes to mating. I have never heard of a man saying" I don't want to have bigger muscles." or "Nope I want a women that has no butt and a flat chest." Now before  someone says I sound sexist. I am in no way saying women with small body parts are not equal. I for one am a butt guy and not care too much for boobs bigger then the palms of my hands. (thats another thread all in it self). I am just making note of what I have heard Also look at the animal kingdom only the strong survive and only the big and power get to mate, the thin and weak get eating and left to die. We all like bigger in some way, shape or form. To me what is the point of training if you don't ever look like you train? I mean having low body fat to the point you have abs is great, but if a normal t-shirt covers up all your hours of training, well I would not want it. I for one don't mind having a bit of bf. I have never had someone male or female asks if I have abs. Most men want to know what I lift and most women like that I have size where it matters. When I walk into a group, people move and I have only had a hand full of men make the mistake of picking a fight. My size and strength has played a huge role in my life.


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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:22 am

trainingforlife wrote:Size matters in life. I would say 90% of the world sees size as something being more useful and more powerful. Size also means fear and respect in a lot of cases.  How many time have you heard someone say "Dang look at that guy he is huge!" or " I am not going to mess with that person look at the size of him!"  Even when it comes to women most men want  a woman that has a nice size butt and /or boobs on them. I have never heard of a man saying" I don't want to have bigger muscles." or "Nope I want a women that has no butt and a flat chest." Now before  someone says I sound sexist. I am in no way saying women with small body parts are not equal. I for one am a butt guyand not care too much for boobs bigger then the palms of my hands. (thats another thread all in it self). I am just making note of what I have heard. We all like bigger in some way, shape or form. To me what is the point of training if you don't ever look like you train?
Same here geeza!

I see what you mean, but I personally idolize gymnasts, athletes and fighters more than bodybuilders. So its each to their own at the end of the day. I always wear hoodies and long sleeve tops so no one would know if i train or not and i quite like that coz when i do something its then more impressive.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:57 pm

I'm a skinny 200 pounds at 6'4", but everybody I talk fitness to at work or otherwise tells me that I look strong, even the bodybuilding guys who outweigh me (or would if we were the same height).  From a little probing with certain people, I've learned that it's my posture, the decisiveness of my gait and the shape/look of my traps and neck that make me look strong.  My height and confidence can't hurt either.  But if I really cared about size that much I'd be eating a lot more and lifting a lot differently (low bar instead of high bar squats, for example, more bodybuilding movements, etc.).  I like the direction my physical development is taking.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:24 pm

Dave wrote:I like the direction my physical development is taking.
:up: Same here
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:11 pm

Dave wrote:I'm a skinny 200 pounds at 6'4", but everybody I talk fitness to at work or otherwise tells me that I look strong, even the bodybuilding guys who outweigh me (or would if we were the same height).
I've been hearing this since I was 125 pounds at 5'8'', which is why I don't put much stock in 'most people's opinions... haha.

Also, TFL, sure size makes an impression but it can also be darn deceiving. There's a reason I dislike bigger (generally soft/decent amount of fat) guys who parade themselves around with only halfway decent strength levels--they aren't even that strong. I've got a couple of those at my school.

I do believe that there's a certain 'look' that's extremely imposing regardless of size (has to do more with proportions, I think) and it has nothing to do with overall height, or weight, or big arms and chest. Deep down, we all know real strength when we see it and there's no hiding someone who can rip 700 pounds off the floor or has worked hard with his hands all his life. Look at slim farman, or ken leistner, or even that hawthorne guy who can deadlift almost 5x bodyweight--maybe not that imposing in pictures compared to some others, but you can tell that up close and personal they'd make an impression.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by alexander_a on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:24 pm

get absolutely jacked forearms, thick traps and lats - nice, even in hiphop outfists ;)

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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Iliander on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:39 pm

alexander_a wrote:get absolutely jacked forearms, thick traps and lats - nice, even in hiphop outfists ;)
I agree with this. Jacked and defined forearms can make your arms look much bigger than they actually are. My forearms are a bit out of proportion compared to my upper arms but it only makes my arms as a whole seem bigger.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by trainingforlife on Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:01 pm

Journeyman wrote:

Also, TFL, sure size makes an impression but it can also be darn deceiving.
This is very true, but again not too many people jack with the big guy. Not too many people want to take that chance of being wrong that the big guy it not that strong. However a thinner person will be most likely picked on regardless of what he can do in or outside the gym. For one reason his size.
Look at it this way. If not know anything about two people which one would you rather not mess with spider-man or the hulk. (Not peter parker and david banner). Looks allow people would rather take on spider-man. (My inner geek was a weak lol)

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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:07 pm

trainingforlife wrote:However a thinner person will be most likely picked on regardless of what he can do in or outside the gym.
Agreed for sure. There are always exceptions though, a possible one being that the would be bullies are already aware of what their intended victim can do and are not sure they want to risk having it unleashed on them.

Where I disagree, however, is on the most likely candidate for being picked on. I believe it's the one who has a visibly nervous or fearful demeanor and always walks with his eyes on the ground, not paying attention to what's going on around him. He looks like he has no confidence to face anything head on and does not appear to have either wits or strength.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:20 pm

Journeyman wrote:I don't put much stock in 'most people's opinions... haha.
Every opinion has merit and is worth considering, at least as far as it's context deserves. Everyone has a slightly different notion of what "strong" is, and I think the longer you train and the more exposed you are to others who train, the greater "strong" becomes for you. It's pretty safe to say that being called "strong" means a lot less coming from some random non-training person than it does coming from Bill Kazmaier. It's all relative.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by squatty on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:50 am

I like the military press,
At higher reps it "might" mostly work the top section of the upperbody, but I'm absolutely sure, if I get to pressing BW for reps, I'll look like a different person all over the body. from my calves to even my forearms will be different.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Fatman on Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:36 am

I agree with all of the above to some degree.

A guy who has built decent OVERALL strength levels will look pretty strong, even if he's not jacked (i.e. if he's on the skinny or fat side). Size can be deceiving, but few 'big' guys will become big without attaining a reasonable degree of strength, and few 'little' guys will remain little if they do the same.

I can think of one guy I knew who was overall strong and on the small side - he benched over 400, squatted (to depth) and deadlifted around 500 while weighing only around 175, but was very compact and ripped and definitely looked strong. Definitely not a 'little guy' by anyone's standards.

The guy who gets picked on is the guy who looks most like a victim. Size will help, even if it isn't accompanied by strength, but only to a degree. A little guy is more likely to be picked on than a big guy, but a large man with a sheepish demeanor will often be targeted by troublemakers for no other reason but to 'beat up that big guy'.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:01 pm

Fatman wrote:
The guy who gets picked on is the guy who looks most like a victim. Size will help, even if it isn't accompanied by strength, but only to a degree. A little guy is more likely to be picked on than a big guy, but a large man with a sheepish demeanor will often be targeted by troublemakers for no other reason but to 'beat up that big guy'.
All of this. Heck, I'm pretty sure that while a smaller fellow might be targeted more for theft or mugging, a bigger guy regardless of his attitude is more likely to be taken down by a group looking for trouble and/or to 'prove themselves' (not that 3 or 4 on 1 proves anything, but there you go).

At the risk of turning this into the 'fight' thread on BWC, I'll try and forestall that nonsense by saying that avoidance is probably a better policy than relying on self-image, confidence, or whatever you project, to stay out of trouble.

Also, regarding the 'size' argument, the funny thing is that even though I constantly campaign for absolute strength and rarely get into 'pound for pound' arguments unless the people in question are high level strength athletes; in real life I've only seem maybe two bigger guys who are actually as powerful as they appear. It's probably cases of wasted potential more often than not, imo....
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:29 pm

How you project yourself has a big part to play in how likely you are to avoid an incident.  Don't be cocky, don't be a pushover and don't go looking for trouble and it will mostly likely never find you. It's worked for me and I used to attract bullies like crazy when I was in high school.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Fatman on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:43 pm

Journeyman wrote:Also, regarding the 'size' argument, the funny thing is that even though I constantly campaign for absolute strength and rarely get into 'pound for pound' arguments unless the people in question are high level strength athletes; in real life I've only seem maybe two bigger guys who are actually as powerful as they appear. It's probably cases of wasted potential more often than not, imo....
That one's quite easy to explain. A naturally big person (someone who puts on muscle size easily) is very rarely interested in getting as strong as they possibly can and realizing some arbitrary "strength potential" number. Most people (probably 99% of those who set foot in the gym) would be quite content with looking big and jacked. The world really doesn't care whether you can bench 225 or 405, or pull four or six plates, and if you don't care either, what's the purpose? 20-inch fatceps will trump a 600-lb. squat any day.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:53 pm

^ This too. People used to being big (or at least, the biggest/fattest person in the room) seem to like shrugging 405--gloves are a must--and cheat hammer curling 60s or 70s, plus calf work. Maybe some heavy half squats too. It's sad. 270 pound fat guys of average height should be pulling 700, not maxing out the calf machine and then strutting up and down to examine their bellies in the mirror.

Same goes, of course, for the twigs feverently working their concentration curls and crunches. I remember going to my college gym for the first time and being surprised that, in some places at least, kubik didn't exaggerate in the slightest.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:02 pm

In an effort to get something useful out of this thread:
http://physicalculture.canadian-forum.com/t169-best-of-bryce-lane#4582

This is a great article, very true. And, there's more carryover between 'attributes' than most people seem to think. It's rare to find a top raw powerlifter who isn't built pretty powerfully, even the guys in lighter weight classes are huge for their size. And, competitive bodybuilders are all scary strong, even if they don't focus on strength. Especially the natties, because they can't rely on their response to drugs in order to grow.

And I really think that better conditioning and endurance = easier strength gains, so long as your base doesn't interfere with actual strength training. I mean, a base of strength-endurance is the entire idea behind the western idea of linear periodization, and base building via work capacity (lots of sets, high frequency) is the eastern equivalent.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:13 pm

Maybe that's why Phil has such a hard time losing weight.  And maybe that's why I should condition more often again...
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Journeyman on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:46 pm

It's not so much that conditioning will help with strength (though when you get to a certain bodyweight, being able to walk to a loaded barbell without sitting down on the way probably helps) but building strength-endurance, or a sort of work capacity with the strength you do have.... It really is all about base building, whether it's via increased frequency, or volume.
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Rix on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:46 pm

Journeyman wrote:Same goes, of course, for the twigs feverently working their concentration curls and crunches.
I have been guilty of this in the past when I first went gym :lol: 
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Re: Strength vs Size vs Endurance

Post by Dave on Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:49 pm

Me too, though it was a "home gym". Boy I had no idea... I thought lots of curls and eating ground beef right after was the way to an Ahnold like physique...
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