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Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Brahma Bill on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 am

ccheatum wrote:That is a lot of reps of those movements, Dave. Does that many reps of Hindu squats bother your knees at all?
Actually they make his knees indestructible  :zerk: 
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by ccheatum on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:05 am

Indestructible?!? That is a bold claim. What makes them so good?
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Brahma Bill on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:39 am

ccheatum wrote:Indestructible?!? That is a bold claim. What makes them so good?
I've got no idea. But if your knees are bugging you, Hindu Squats are the cure.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:30 am

Hindu squats move your knee joint through a full and natural range of motion very quickly and explosively in an extremely low impact manner. The very definition of medicine if you ask me! :mrgreen:

I actually fell asleep before I could do my final 50/25/0:30 last night, so instead this morning I did 20/10 x 5, then 1:30 in the bridge.

Will do my remaining 2 x 50/25/0:30, one at work on lunch, then the other at home tonight. Also, bringing my Vibrams and a tennis ball to work for my feet.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Cesar on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:53 am

the royal court.
simple and effective. good medicine like you said...i will get little Cesar in on them.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by ccheatum on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:52 pm

Interesting… I don't have knee problems per se, but it sounds like they are good prehab and certainly a good conditioning exercise too!
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:57 pm

Finished my royal court for the day. Might have to increase the numbers though, as the hindu squats are taking more and more reps to cause me any real burn. I used to do sets of 100 without getting too out of breath or even feeling a burn. I should very much like to get there again - and beyond.

Cesar wrote:i will get little Cesar in on them.

You are no longer Batdad. This would officially make you Superdad!
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by itlives on Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:11 pm

Dave wrote:  I should very much like to get there again - and beyond.

Addict mentality.. I'm glad it's a good addiction we all have! Can't wait to get back at it!!
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Cesar on Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:59 pm

Dave wrote:Finished my royal court for the day.  Might have to increase the numbers though, as the hindu squats are taking more and more reps to cause me any real burn. I used to do sets of 100 without getting too out of breath or even feeling a burn.  I should very much like to get there again - and beyond.

Cesar wrote:i will get little Cesar in on them.

You are no longer Batdad.  This would officially make you Superdad!

he has joined me a couple of times on this ATG challenge I am partaking in this month. When I do my snatches, he does front rolls and jumping jacks - his approximation, that is. Coordination is getting there. roll is pretty straight on.

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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by itlives on Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:27 pm

He is at the ingraining age. KEEP ON KEEP"N ON!
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Rix on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:16 pm

The royal court seems pretty useful. interesting...
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Cesar on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:44 pm

itlives wrote:He is at the ingraining age. KEEP ON KEEP"N ON!

that's the plan. we go to florida for two weeks and there is a large park across the street from where we will be staying. My plan is to bring him daily and play some. you know, crawls, jumps, running around, throwing things, etc.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:04 pm

100 Hindu squats, 50 hindu pushups, done. And then wrestler's bridge. I had to pause after 50 squats and again after 60, 70 and 85. But it's only day three.  :idea2: 
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:07 pm

Rix wrote:The royal court seems pretty useful. interesting...

Oh it is. Wonderful way to re/prehab your shoulders and knees.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Rix on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:05 am

Dave wrote:
Rix wrote:The royal court seems pretty useful. interesting...

Oh it is.  Wonderful way to re/prehab your shoulders and knees.

Convinced! I'm gonna give it ago
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Iliander on Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:36 am

nice
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by alexander_a on Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:23 pm

nice to see you're doing it again man! High frequency is gooood!
Let's see how the numbers keep going up!

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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:43 pm

Thanks Alex. Actually our FB conversation is part of the reason I decided to hit it again.  :)  So double thanks!
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:31 am

Yesterday I did my full 150 squats and 75 pushups. I have 1:30 of bridging to catch up on though, plus my numbers for today. Will try to do most of it at work on my breaks or lunch and finish off anything left over tonight after 9 when I get home.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Cesar on Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:16 pm

Dave,
I have done some looking around online re: royal court.  most bash it.  too many reps that kill joints including a comment about too many reps have not helped Mike Mahler.  
I am guessing too many reps of anything is no good.
Example - Greek and too many burpees.  too many snatches.  too many of anything.

Thoughts?

You have mentioned multiple benefits before. why so much controversy?
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Iliander on Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:15 pm

Cesar wrote:Dave,
I have done some looking around online re: royal court.  most bash it.  too many reps that kill joints including a comment about too many reps have not helped Mike Mahler.  
I am guessing too many reps of anything is no good.
Example - Greek and too many burpees.  too many snatches.  too many of anything.

Thoughts?

You have mentioned multiple benefits before. why so much controversy?
those people are just afraid of reps. if you get joint problems from reps you gotta start warming up, eat better foods and stop forgetting to take your fish oil lol. you can get joint problems from anything, and sometimes it might be a process and you'll get used to it... these days people stop doing something because of the slightest joint pain.

what is too many reps??? if there's anything that healed my knees it's hindu squats.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:13 pm

'Too many reps', imo, would be what those wrestlers were supposedly doing. 3-5,000 without a lot of other stuff to balance it out. (The healthier dudes with longer careers did stuff other than 'squat and pushup all day'... makes sense.)

Personally I don't see any reason to go beyond 200-straight free squats, which is the most I ever did, I think. If you can do that easily as a cooldown sorta thing, you'll have just about all the benefits that exercise can give you; and I'm sure you could push for more if you wanted. No need to do 4-600 or whatever.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Josh T. on Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:43 am

Iliander wrote:
Cesar wrote:Dave,
I have done some looking around online re: royal court.  most bash it.  too many reps that kill joints including a comment about too many reps have not helped Mike Mahler.  
I am guessing too many reps of anything is no good.
Example - Greek and too many burpees.  too many snatches.  too many of anything.

Thoughts?

You have mentioned multiple benefits before. why so much controversy?
those people are just afraid of reps. if you get joint problems from reps you gotta start warming up, eat better foods and stop forgetting to take your fish oil lol. you can get joint problems from anything, and sometimes it might be a process and you'll get used to it... these days people stop doing something because of the slightest joint pain.

what is too many reps??? if there's anything that healed my knees it's hindu squats.

If it were that simple, thousands of people would not have any joint pain whatsoever. I STILL struggle with elbow pain to this day, and my nutrition and supplementation, warm-up, programming, etc., is DIALED IN. Especially because I have a meet next week.

You're right, you CAN get joint problems and pain from anything. Literally, thinking about pain and getting anxiety over pain can make your pain worse. Conversely, your posture can be absolute crap, and you can be completely asymptomatic and without pain, despite the fact that everything we currently know about posture says you should be in pain. This is why the biomechanical model (dealing with postural deficiencies) of pain is outdated, and they've moved over to the bio-psycho-social model of pain. Essentlally, pain is a product of biology+psychology+environment. It's NOT THAT SIMPLE. Before saying 'people just need to do this or that', you need to better understand the issue you're talking about. it can't simply be explained away by a 'this worked for me, so I'm going to extrapolate it out to everybody' approach. Just because high rep squats have worked for you and a few others, does not mean that it will work for a large portion of the population. Or many of the people on this forum. Does that mean it WON'T work, then? No, but you can't just say it worked for you, so it must work for everyone. Even if you didn't explicitly state that, the implications came across.

Another thing, you don't even know what the joint pain is caused from. Maybe its from excessive inflammation, which would warrant a certain approach; however, it could be because of a LACK of inflammation, or deficits in the inflammatory response, which would warrant a DIFFERENT approach. Don't make blanket statements, or you may end up hurting people one day.

I'm not trying to put you on blast here, but these kinds of statements are rather annoying to me. Be a critical thinker, man. Before you nonchalantly put a statement like this out there you should consider the potential implications of said statement, and whether that statement is even right.

/end mini rant.

For more reading on pain... "The Ultimate Guide to Pain"
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Cesar on Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:15 am

Thanks fellas for the replies. This is exactly why I posted the question. I am not sure about the different posts I read. What i read stated 500 - 2000 hindu squats consistently maybe even daily for several months had led to overuse and "joints not feeling the same" whatever that means. When partaking in the 30 day pull up in the past and current snatch challenge lead to elbow joint t discomfort and swelling my thought was the same for high volume hindu squats and possibly push ups. Your point is well taken about anything can lead to overuse, pain, discomfort etc. Too much of a good thimg in excess can have the opposite effect. Now again the questions would be what is high volume, what kind of form is one using, what previous physical issues are there and one might be predisposed to. In regards to your nonchalant, noncritical thinking comment Josh - the questions was meant to be vague to first elicit some conversation and not limit the scope with a super focused question knowing that ones such as you and jman would be replying and have more knowledge about the topic. Second, I do not have such knowledge and come from the stance of student trying to learn from others such as jman, Dave and yourself. Once again thanks for the response
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:32 am

Josh, thanks for the link!  You have helped shatter some of my long held beliefs to replace them with something that makes a lot more sense from every possible angle!

Cesar, Josh was addressing Ili for his arguably absolutist sounding statement, not ridiculing anyone for asking questions.  :)
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:48 am

Hindu squats worked really well for me and Ili too.  I'll still bet they'll work for just about anyone as a highly efficient means to put on muscle and improve function and with the right mentality put an end to pain as well.  Speaking of which I still have a bunch to do tonight...  My excuse is that I had a busy day including a bike around doing errands on my lunch and entertaining a couple kids from work for a little while after teaching them (you guessed it) the royal court.  I only managed time enough for 50/25/0:00 at the tippy tail end of my lunch on the smoking patio at work. So I still owe 100/50/2:00 IIRC.

I'll post when I get it done, maybe I'll try to video it.

The whole front of my body feels more muscular and solid after only three days or so and I am going at least to March 1st, with at least as much volume as I mentioned above.  I am liking everything about this experiment except my anterior chain is overpowering my thoracic extension, so I think I'll try to work some scapular extensions and retractions into the movement as smoothly as possible.  And I have a 70 pound dumbbell in here too, so rows are definitely in order and long overdo.  I only had to work 3 days so far this week thanks to my new 4 x 10 schedule (I worked Mon, Tues, Fri and had Thursday booked off in advance) so I have no excuse to not get in a really thorough and fun session right now. In fact I think pain and I are coming to a mutual understanding tonight!  :mrgreen: 
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:17 am

Dave wrote:Hindu squats worked really well for me and Ili too.  I'll still bet they'll work for just about anyone as a highly efficient means to put on muscle and improve function and with the right mentality put an end to pain as well

^ See, that's exactly what josh is referring to. "This worked well for me and this other dude, so it should work well for anyone with the right mindset!" Yeah, no....

Like I said, most healthy people with no problems should at least be able to work up to doing unweighted squats continuously for 5+ minutes and get some decent benefits therefrom. But that's not everybody; and in a training environment you have to be very careful about stuff like this. This is probably more of a concern for you than Ili as I don't think he has any aspirations to train people.

Personal example: all the heavily loaded spinal flexion work has been awesome for me. I haven't broken my back like tons of people said I would, got pretty decently strong, and discovered loads of very functional (by any definition) benefits. Does that mean I'd suggest it to others? Heck no. Would I recommend loading full spinal flexion, to some small extent, for everyone? No. For most people who don't have any issues? Probably, but again, gotta research/experiment with the individual first. That's how this works.

The knowledge in this industry that physical culture has become is advancing extremely rapidly (on the cutting edge, anyway, your average gym rat is at least a couple decades behind, haha) and that's great. We should all be thinking way beyond 'dude, this exercise is "good for" x, y, and z.' It should all be critical thinking--different options, alternative solutions, individual cases. On a forum like this, I share what worked for me, but am pretty clear that I don't necessarily expect it to work for anyone else. Anything we see anyone else do, we are free to implement into and experiment with in our own training as we see fit, as we're training ourselves. But that's on us. You've probably noticed that I try to give individual advice based on what I see, otherwise, I tend to hold back; or simply say 'try this... if you want.' (I've noticed you usually do that too Dave which is great.)

I'll be writing a blog about this pretty soon, once I get this next battery of schoolwork done.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:23 am

I hit a PR in the band triceps press.  I've double up the gold and purple resistaband, about 3 feet in length, then folded them in then pressed out for 5 reps.  This morning my PR had been singles.

Finished my workout for tonight, except a couple things.

Journeyman wrote:
Dave wrote:Hindu squats worked really well for me and Ili too.  I'll still bet they'll work for just about anyone as a highly efficient means to put on muscle and improve function and with the right mentality put an end to pain as well

^ See, that's exactly what josh is referring to. "This worked well for me and this other dude, so it should work well for anyone with the right mindset!"

I expressed an opinion based on my own observations of not just myself, but anyone I have ever convinced to continue hindu squats for more than a couple weeks.  But this confidence can be said this for a lot of other movements, like the overhead squat and swings or the clean and press and burpees.  I just find hindu squats very easy to recover from, like any bodyweight movement, and I have high hopes from what I've seen them do for almost everybody save one or two cases.  I see how my statement could have been taken as a challenge or maybe implying that people who don't do or like hindu squats have a bad mentality?  Definitely not what I meant. :shrug:The "right mentality" I was proposing is liking them, wanting to do them and feeling positive in every way about doing them before, during and after (though maybe not after every session!).

or simply say 'try this... if you want.' (I've noticed you usually do that too Dave which is great.)

That's all I'm doing here too, as you now see.  But don't ask me to play down my enthusiasm for hindu squats!  :mrgreen: 

When I first did them, I did them for about six months, basically daily, multiple times a day, with necessary days off here and there, sometimes up to a week.  The highest I ever went was 745, give or take 10 and it took just under 50:00.  I suspected as I was doing it that it was not responsible training, but I had to test my limits and gratify my ego, despite the pain.  Well I hobbled for a day or three and was terribly sore for the next four.  But most of the time I did up to sets of 50 on the regular, maybe twice in a day averaging three days a week, with 100 reps done on lunches.  They weren't always in a single set, though sometimes they were.  I got good results and found huge joy at my gateway to fitness.

My intention at this stage is to do them for a couple weeks of what I'd call high volume to rebuild this pattern, especially in my bare feet in the hopes of further strengthening my flat feet and improving power-endurance from the ground up.  Sets of 100 is as high as I want to go in training, but I may test myself on reps again some day, but not to extremes like before.

To improve my posture, and strengthen my feet I've been grabbing the carpet with my toes on the squats, while also trying to spread them out and especially forcing my right big toe to hold it's fair share of the weight.  This does wonders for my posture, especially with the other two exercises, but my feet are not strong enough to hold the arch for very long or in certain stances.  My right toe fatigues and then my arch collapses.  I rest and repeat.  I've been tennis ball rolling it at work and walking around in my Vibrams on my 10 hour shifts.  I can't wait to see how I'll feel in March!  After my week of recovery, that is.   :eyebrows:
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Cesar on Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:51 am

Dave wrote:Josh, thanks for the link!  You have helped shatter some of my long held beliefs to replace them with something that makes a lot more sense from every possible angle!

Cesar, Josh was addressing Ili for his arguably absolutist sounding statement, not ridiculing anyone for asking questions.  :)

my bad. Now looki g at it a second time, I can see that. I guess I impulsively resoonded thinking i was been chastised for asking.
Sorry Josh!
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:04 am

Dave wrote:
I expressed an opinion based on my own observations of not just myself, but anyone I have ever convinced to continue hindu squats for more than a couple weeks.  But this confidence can be said this for a lot of other movements, like the overhead squat and swings or the clean and press and burpees.  I just find hindu squats very easy to recover from, like any bodyweight movement, and I have high hopes from what I've seen them do for almost everybody save one or two cases.  I see how my statement could have been taken as a challenge or maybe implying that people who don't do or like hindu squats have a bad mentality?  Definitely not what I meant. :shrug:The "right mentality" I was proposing is liking them, wanting to do them and feeling positive in every way about doing them before, during and after (though maybe not after every session!).

But this remains a very small sample size compared to the number of clients you'd be exposed to if you trained people for a profession the rest of your life. Overhead squats? The vast majority of the population couldn't even begin to think of doing them with an unloaded bar. 'Scaling' the weight isn't a good way to go about fixing this particular problem, either. Clean and press? Gotta teach the hinge pattern. Then the deadlift. Then the rack position. Then the clean. Plenty of people can't press overhead comfortably with a barbell, either. Burpees? Those are hard to screw up right away, but most people absolutely butcher the form and end up flopping all over the place landing in a pushup position with their heads down, butts sagging, and elbows flared out, damaging their front delt attachments (among other things).

Despite being horribly weak when I first started training, I was lucky to have been pretty darn active as a kid and I can do all this stuff no problem. So can most people here. But we're the lucky ones and we are not the majority. The average first world citizen can't sit in a flat footed full squat or stand holding an empty bar locked out directly overhead without training for it. That is what we are dealing with.

Feeling positive about performing a movement won't alter the fact that a ton of untrained normal people (and heck, a ton of athletes who have problems due to their sport damaging/injuring them in some way) simply can't do these movements. (I know they were just examples, but they're good ones, to make my point.) And this is the kind of thing we have to think about when giving advice--not necessarily on this or other forums, but in real life, with real people; for those of us who do. It's far from being as simple as saying 'this exercise is 'good'. Do this.' Again, for what it's worth I believe hindu or high rep free squats to be very very useful in the objective sense. That doesn't change any of what I just said, though.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:31 am

And we all agree many exercises done responsibly by those who enjoy them and continue to progress at them are good!  Next.  :)
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Josh T. on Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:58 pm

Yeah, Cesar, I wasn't trying to chastise anyone, I was just pointing out that we, as health and fitness consumers and potential educators (for some of us), should not flippantly throw statements out there without realizing the implications of the statement. I was trying to make the point that there is still SO MUCH we don't know, and, as Jman is saying, without looking at each individual's needs, making statements like that can hurt people. It goes back to "the more I know, the more I realize I don't know" kinda thing, which is part of the reason why I posted the link to pain. Cause we still don't even know about something as seemingly simple as that.

Dave, if you could say (I'm just throwing out numbers here) something like I've worked with over 200 people suffering from chronic knee pain, and so-and-so programming with hindu squats worked to successfully alleviate their knee pain after an average of so-many weeks, that would be a potentially valid conclusion to draw from as your sample size is sufficiently large enough to warrant serious discussion about the potential benefits of the squats. That's like the scientific method in a nutshell. Observe-test-results, and then you could communicate your ideas much better that way. This is what guys like Josh Bryant and John Meadows do; they have their hand in the science of things, but a lot of their training philosophies come from constant experimentation on themselves and their clients and the data to validate their claims. Another very important adage: "what gets measured gets managed."

Again, I'm not putting anyone on blast or chastising anyone, I'm just trying to say we need to be more cognizant of collecting and poring over the data we get from clients or whoever we work with to elucidate what works for who and how in what situation at what age...and so on and so forth. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Brahma Bill on Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:00 pm

Josh T. wrote:. It goes back to "the more I know, the more I realize I don't know" kinda thing,.
Most folks don't figure this out until they're at least 40  :D 
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Iliander on Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:58 pm

Josh T. wrote:
Iliander wrote:those people are just afraid of reps. if you get joint problems from reps you gotta start warming up, eat better foods and stop forgetting to take your fish oil lol. you can get joint problems from anything, and sometimes it might be a process and you'll get used to it... these days people stop doing something because of the slightest joint pain.

what is too many reps??? if there's anything that healed my knees it's hindu squats.

If it were that simple, thousands of people would not have any joint pain whatsoever. I STILL struggle with elbow pain to this day, and my nutrition and supplementation, warm-up, programming, etc., is DIALED IN. Especially because I have a meet next week.

You're right, you CAN get joint problems and pain from anything. Literally, thinking about pain and getting anxiety over pain can make your pain worse. Conversely, your posture can be absolute crap, and you can be completely asymptomatic and without pain, despite the fact that everything we currently know about posture says you should be in pain. This is why the biomechanical model (dealing with postural deficiencies) of pain is outdated, and they've moved over to the bio-psycho-social model of pain. Essentlally, pain is a product of biology+psychology+environment. It's NOT THAT SIMPLE. Before saying 'people just need to do this or that', you need to better understand the issue you're talking about. it can't simply be explained away by a 'this worked for me, so I'm going to extrapolate it out to everybody' approach. Just because high rep squats have worked for you and a few others, does not mean that it will work for a large portion of the population. Or many of the people on this forum. Does that mean it WON'T work, then? No, but you can't just say it worked for you, so it must work for everyone. Even if you didn't explicitly state that, the implications came across.

Another thing, you don't even know what the joint pain is caused from. Maybe its from excessive inflammation, which would warrant a certain approach; however, it could be because of a LACK of inflammation, or deficits in the inflammatory response, which would warrant a DIFFERENT approach. Don't make blanket statements, or you may end up hurting people one day.

I'm not trying to put you on blast here, but these kinds of statements are rather annoying to me. Be a critical thinker, man. Before you nonchalantly put a statement like this out there you should consider the potential implications of said statement, and whether that statement is even right.

/end mini rant.

For more reading on pain... "The Ultimate Guide to Pain"
i don't understand the point. the truth is that a lot of people are afraid of reps and will come up with excuses. i know there will always be exceptions, but i don't see how the royal court would cause any joint PROBLEMS. and if it would MOST LIKELY the victims didn't warmup and have a crap diet. i am not saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to develop joint problems from high reps (or whatever it is we're talking about) if your nutrition, programming, etc is good. i am just pointing out that these so called new age undertraining deadlifts once every 2 weeks gurus need to shut up when they say that "the royal court is too many reps" because none of us is dumb enough to not understand that it is total crap.

i'm just being honest in my opinion here.

i already did about 750 dips today gonna try to do another 250 and then sleep :p
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:43 pm

Jman, Josh, I am almost getting the vibe of "unless you study exercise physiology in university and train many many people first, then shut up about hindu squats." I don't feel any moral or ethical obligation to tabulate data and studies of dozens or hundreds of trainees before expressing enthusiasm and high expectations from an exercise that has produced a good track record when I've used it for myself or others. I share my opinion and others can make their own minds up.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Iliander on Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:53 pm

Dave wrote:Jman, Josh, I am almost getting the vibe of "unless you study exercise physiology in university and train many many people first, then shut up about hindu squats."  I don't feel any moral or ethical obligation to tabulate data and studies of dozens or hundreds of trainees before expressing enthusiasm and high expectations from an exercise that has produced a good track record when I've used it for myself or others.  I share my opinion and others can make their own minds up.
I agree with this.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Brahma Bill on Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:26 pm

Y'all need to hug it out over here!
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:04 pm

Dave wrote:Jman, Josh, I am almost getting the vibe of "unless you study exercise physiology in university and train many many people first, then shut up about hindu squats."  I don't feel any moral or ethical obligation to tabulate data and studies of dozens or hundreds of trainees before expressing enthusiasm and high expectations from an exercise that has produced a good track record when I've used it for myself or others.  I share my opinion and others can make their own minds up.

Not at all my friend. I haven't done either... and didn't you catch the example I gave of rounded-back deadlifts? That's pretty identical, imo.
The discussion arose from a question about a potential for injury. I'm basically playing devil's advocate here; as I do believe that hindu squats (as well as the other exercises you mentioned) do indeed have the potential to hurt the great majority of people if improperly used, or used by those who shouldn't. That is all.
I'm sensing a lot of defensiveness over nothing, really. You and Iliander are basically saying... "I don't see how they could hurt," I'm just saying, "keep your mind open to the realistic possibilities... of course they could hurt someone." Here you're saying that if people keep the correct mindset they should be fine, and Ili's saying that people are just afraid of xyz....

All I'm suggesting is more responsibility. Obviously no one has a problem with an enthusiastic suggestion for a certain exercise, movement, method, program, etc. The problem is when you (more or less) deny that there are very real risks for a large number of people. Which really is the case.

You seem threatened by the idea of an actual education where this stuff is concerned, for some reason, (which you shouldn't, if you're still considering it as a real, legitimate career--you don't want to be one of those trainers, again, who can only say 'dude, this exercise is 'good', do it') and Iliander seems threatened by an arbitrary concept--still saying "I don't see how this could cause joint problems, people just have weak minds and hate high reps." Not what we're saying at all, guys. Just advising a little critical thinking. The human body is complex and, in today's society, pretty darn weak for most people. These are actual considerations some of us have--and I do think you should too. Why the hurt feelings?
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:44 pm

No, the question is why do you attribute a position to me that I never expressed. When did I say any exercise does not have the potential to cause injury if used improperly?
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:47 pm

Brahma Bill wrote:Y'all need to hug it out over here!

Haha, no hurt feelings here, just trying to clear up any misunderstandings between friends.  :handshake: 
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:48 pm

By the way, all reps for today are done, but I now owe about 2:30 or 3:00 of bridging...
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:54 pm

Dave wrote:No, the question is why do you attribute a position to me that I never expressed.  When did I say any exercise does not have the potential to cause injury if used improperly?

You didn't, and I'm not attributing that position to you or Iliander--merely a lack of consideration when it comes to 'improper use'.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Josh T. on Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:28 pm

Dave wrote:Jman, Josh, I am almost getting the vibe of "unless you study exercise physiology in university and train many many people first, then shut up about hindu squats."  I don't feel any moral or ethical obligation to tabulate data and studies of dozens or hundreds of trainees before expressing enthusiasm and high expectations from an exercise that has produced a good track record when I've used it for myself or others.  I share my opinion and others can make their own minds up.

Wasn't saying anything about your right to express an opinion or the validity of an opinion. What I am saying, is that you can't generalize the results gotten from you and a few others to the entire population. Nor am I attacking the exercise. It may be a great tool for certain people at certain times. Or a lot of the people a lot of the time. But the fact of the matter is, for some people out there, it is likely that there problems are sufficient to where hindu squats just may not work. There's always a tool for the job, and you have to apply the right tool for the job. I wouldn't work with an athlete and have them do heavy powerlifting training, squatting 3x a week, deadlifting twice a week, etc., just because I have a 32" vertical and can squat 413lbs and deadlift 475lbs, can dunk a basketball and it may have worked for me. Gotta avoid the mindset of 'when you have a hammer, everything's a nail'. Nor am I accusing you of having that mindset. I'm just saying we have to exercise caution in our recommendations. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough earlier. Also, I apologize if my previous responses seemed condescending - that was not the intent. I am just encouraging critical thinking, and again - exercising caution in recommending things.

Also, there's nothing wrong with data collection - if you're dealing with a difficult client and you notice they're not making progress one month where they made progress the previous 3 months, you can go back, mine their data, and find out why they're not making progress or asking yourself why you switched up the programming to high intensity, when it is now obvious to you that that client does much better on a high volume program. This is the essence of data collection. Same thing I pushed with Ili a while back - if you want to know if you're getting bigger where you want to, 1) use a scale, and 2) take measurements of your body part circumference at a certain time interval. I do not think this form of data collection is excessive or overly difficult to do with yourself or your potential clients.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Rix on Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:36 am

Dave wrote:Jman, Josh, I am almost getting the vibe of "unless you study exercise physiology in university and train many many people first, then shut up about hindu squats."  I don't feel any moral or ethical obligation to tabulate data and studies of dozens or hundreds of trainees before expressing enthusiasm and high expectations from an exercise that has produced a good track record when I've used it for myself or others.  I share my opinion and others can make their own minds up.

Hindu Squats FTW!!! haha, love em. I too Agree with this ^^ i have been shot down before just for expressing an opinion. This is why i keep quiet a lot now days on individual exercise and specific training topics.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:44 am

Rix wrote:
Dave wrote:Jman, Josh, I am almost getting the vibe of "unless you study exercise physiology in university and train many many people first, then shut up about hindu squats."  I don't feel any moral or ethical obligation to tabulate data and studies of dozens or hundreds of trainees before expressing enthusiasm and high expectations from an exercise that has produced a good track record when I've used it for myself or others.  I share my opinion and others can make their own minds up.

Hindu Squats FTW!!! haha, love em. I too Agree with this ^^ i have been shot down before just for expressing an opinion. This is why i keep quiet a lot now days on individual exercise and specific training topics.

No one's shooting anyone down for expressing an opinion, dude. In fact, I share Dave's opinion, and most of Iliander's, as I described in pretty fair detail. Just trying to convey a method of thinking that apparently the others do not share, that would be very useful to at least one person (Dave) who's interested in doing this for a living.

On a forum, interjecting some basic logic and critical thinking into a discussion shouldn't cause people to shy away--but here, it always has. I know that most people here just have fun mucking around with their workouts, which is me most of the time too. But actually actively thinking, discussing, trying to see things from another point of view; that's all pretty useful. And without that, the forum is just a bunch of people congratulating each other on their training logs... and you wonder why there aren't new members.

And I do think that Dave (I think? Forget who it was now) saying that having experience and an education is a negative thing, or basically calling us snobs--is pretty dumb, and just seems jealous or bitter to me. Why wouldn't you want to learn? And heck yes, having a sports education at a great university (which I don't), diagnosing high numbers of people (I'm working on it) or just learning and working at a very high level (I'm lucky to have done a ton of that in the past year) is a GREAT thing.

And yes it makes you think a different way. Organic progression is not a simple concept when you're dealing with unique individuals... and the issues shouldn't be oversimplified. Iliander has a certain perspective because he's the right age, with the right mindset, the right work ethic, and is dedicated in the right ways (diet, rest, etc.) to make some phenomenal gains (which he has, and I think it's awesome). But he doesn't seem to realize that what works for him and his friends won't necessarily fly for the vast majority of people that I, or Josh, or Dave, might well end up working with. That's fine too--just don't get all pissy and take it personally if, heaven forbid, someone disagrees with you on the internet. I wouldn't think anyone here needs to have their feelings coddled if I'm explaining a different approach.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Rix on Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:33 am

Journeyman wrote:
Rix wrote:
Dave wrote:Jman, Josh, I am almost getting the vibe of "unless you study exercise physiology in university and train many many people first, then shut up about hindu squats."  I don't feel any moral or ethical obligation to tabulate data and studies of dozens or hundreds of trainees before expressing enthusiasm and high expectations from an exercise that has produced a good track record when I've used it for myself or others.  I share my opinion and others can make their own minds up.

Hindu Squats FTW!!! haha, love em. I too Agree with this ^^ i have been shot down before just for expressing an opinion. This is why i keep quiet a lot now days on individual exercise and specific training topics.

No one's shooting anyone down for expressing an opinion, dude. In fact, I share Dave's opinion, and most of Iliander's, as I described in pretty fair detail. Just trying to convey a method of thinking that apparently the others do not share, that would be very useful to at least one person (Dave) who's interested in doing this for a living.

On a forum, interjecting some basic logic and critical thinking into a discussion shouldn't cause people to shy away--but here, it always has. I know that most people here just have fun mucking around with their workouts, which is me most of the time too. But actually actively thinking, discussing, trying to see things from another point of view; that's all pretty useful. And without that, the forum is just a bunch of people congratulating each other on their training logs... and you wonder why there aren't new members.

And I do think that Dave (I think? Forget who it was now) saying that having experience and an education is a negative thing, or basically calling us snobs--is pretty dumb, and just seems jealous or bitter to me. Why wouldn't you want to learn? And heck yes, having a sports education at a great university (which I don't), diagnosing high numbers of people (I'm working on it) or just learning and working at a very high level (I'm lucky to have done a ton of that in the past year) is a GREAT thing.

And yes it makes you think a different way. Organic progression is not a simple concept when you're dealing with unique individuals... and the issues shouldn't be oversimplified. Iliander has a certain perspective because he's the right age, with the right mindset, the right work ethic, and is dedicated in the right ways (diet, rest, etc.) to make some phenomenal gains (which he has, and I think it's awesome). But he doesn't seem to realize that what works for him and his friends won't necessarily fly for the vast majority of people that I, or Josh, or Dave, might well end up working with. That's fine too--just don't get all pissy and take it personally if, heaven forbid, someone disagrees with you on the internet. I wouldn't think anyone here needs to have their feelings coddled if I'm explaining a different approach.

No need to be condescending, dude...

I dont really care. I would just rather see a little more light hearted discussions on these topics rather than people forcing their opinions, on both sides. (well thats how im reading it, apologies if thats not what was meant). Disagreeing is fine, disregarding is wrong.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Dave on Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:51 am

It actually does come across as condescending, whether that is your intention or not Jman.  Rix is definitely right about the usefulness for a more light hearted approach.  And since there seems to be confusion as to what I did or did not say, let's get a couple things straight and then leave it at that:

1.  Critical thinking is NOT missing from my cognitive repertoire.

2. I do NOT need to make a "potential for injury disclaimer" every time I express enthusiasm for an exercise.

3. I did NOT say formal education is negative, but I certainly take exception to anyone who says it is a prerequisite to general competence or a right to express ideas.

Guys, this is nitpicking, let's end it. It's a fitness forum, there is always potential for injury and it goes without saying.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Cesar on Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:05 pm

Brahma Bill wrote:
Josh T. wrote:. It goes back to "the more I know, the more I realize I don't know" kinda thing,.
Most folks don't figure this out until they're at least 40  :D 

I was just explaining this idea to one of our interns at our office.  Once you come to the realization that you know absolutely nothing then only then will you be free to learn
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:38 pm

Rix wrote:

No need to be condescending, dude...

I dont really care. I would just rather see a little more light hearted discussions on these topics rather than people forcing their opinions, on both sides. (well thats how im reading it, apologies if thats not what was meant). Disagreeing is fine, disregarding is wrong.

Not being condescending at all. It's just that one of the things I really liked about the old forum, which I posted on for something like 4 years straight (and Dave, Cheesedog, and a few others for even longer) was that new discussions happened every darn day. No one got their feelings hurt, everyone debated pretty hard. That's one of the best ways for you to learn--you listen closely to someone disagreeing with you and putting a good argument up. At least, one of my favorite ways to learn and the thing that web forums are best at.

Here? 'Lighthearted discussion' seems to mean that everyone has to agree all the time, or at least find common ground and act like they're making up after a fight in three posts. Not a fan of that. I sure ain't fighting, I'm not insulting anyone at all (it's the internet. Calling someone's position dumb isn't a personal insult, and if you take it personally that's a problem, imo).

So yeah you're reading it wrong... no problem with that though man. I was tired and maybe didn't get my point across well. I'm definitely not disregarding, though. In fact, I was waiting for a developed counterpoint to come along, but it didn't, so oh well.
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Re: Dave's Countdown to Greater Strength

Post by Journeyman on Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:50 pm

Dave wrote:It actually does come across as condescending, whether that is your intention or not Jman.  Rix is definitely right about the usefulness for a more light hearted approach.  And since there seems to be confusion as to what I did or did not say, let's get a couple things straight and then leave it at that:

1.  Critical thinking is NOT missing from my cognitive repertoire.

2. I do NOT need to make a "potential for injury disclaimer" every time I express enthusiasm for an exercise.

3. I did NOT say formal education is negative, but I certainly take exception to anyone who says it is a prerequisite to general competence or a right to express ideas.

Guys, this is nitpicking, let's end it.  It's a fitness forum, there is always potential for injury and it goes without saying.

That's where we disagree for sure--see my post re: the 'original' board. You know I actively disagreed with the way you set this one up. That said, of course, I do continue to post here anyway, and it's my own choice, so I can't complain.

1. I'm sure, man. That's not the question. It was missing from your original statement. "This has worked for me and the other people I've taught it too, ergo, it probably works for most people."

2. Of course not; especially not here where everyone trains him/herself. The point was that you can't just say, 'I think this is safe for most people' based on a very limited experience. That is all I was trying to say.

3. I'm starting to disagree with this too. Not a right to express ideas of course, but my idea of 'general competence' (just like my idea of physical ability, hah) is getting to be pretty darn high. Why? I thought I was pretty smart at this stuff. Not a genius or anything, but pretty decently capable. The past year or so, I've realized I was very very wrong. I'm an amateur, and this is not a business for amateurs. Just like anything else--you want to be really good in a particular field, you need a legitimate education. Apologies if that thought was expressed a bit harshly, but I'm sure you understand (and hope that you come to the same conclusion, if you yourself want to make this a career).

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