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workout in hard enviroment

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workout in hard enviroment

Post by Buckyx on Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:47 pm

lets say I can do 30 dips and 5x10 with 10kg, then I switch to harder enviroment -- shaking table and I can do only like 5-15 dips and 3-7 weighted If I have a good day

after 1 months I switch back, will I a be able to dip more reps or more weight even if actually I am doing the same but for low reps? I never found dips so hard even when I started in september, dip station is shaking like crazy and its flat grip

also my goal is to dip more weight, doesnt matter where
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Dave on Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:55 pm

I don't really think so, at least not in the example you gave.  You'll just get used to using your stabilizers better, but I don't think your actual prime movers won't get any greater stimulation from moving your bodyweight on rings, or a shaky table than they will from moving your bodyweight on a stable surface.  If anything at all you'll just have better control over the movement - but it's pretty easy to control the movement on a stable surface anyway, so the carryover from unstable to stable would probably be minimal.
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Iliander on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:34 pm

Dave wrote:I don't really think so, at least not in the example you gave.  You'll just get used to using your stabilizers better, but I don't think your actual prime movers won't get any greater stimulation from moving your bodyweight on rings, or a shaky table than they will from moving your bodyweight on a stable surface.  If anything at all you'll just have better control over the movement - but it's pretty easy to control the movement on a stable surface anyway, so the carryover from unstable to stable would probably be minimal.
This is wrong. Part of the stabilizers ARE the same muscles as the prime movers. Bodyweight ring dips will build a lot more strength than regular bodyweight dips.

An unstable dip station is not the same as rings though, but it will probably add some extra strength.
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Dave on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:49 pm

I worked suspension dips exclusively for some time, and never felt any carryover to stable dipping strength.  I worked suspension pullups extensively and exclusively for much longer and my stable pullup reps and max strength retained the same ratio they always had to my suspension pullups, about 16:13.  So you had a different experience, doesn't make mine any less true.   Maybe if I had specialized in BW for as long as you had I would have had a different experience, but I didn't. :hatsoff:
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Iliander on Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:58 pm

Well for pulling movements suspension does not make a big difference... but are you sure it did not matter much with pressing?! I mean suspension dips are harder for you than regular ones right?
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Dave on Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:00 pm

Quite a bit. But my point was that I never noticed my regular dips increase in either weight or reps as a result of training suspension dips. I did, however, notice my chest become more muscular than with parallel bar dips.
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Journeyman on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:15 am

There's a point where one movement can be too different to affect another. Generally, yeah, the harder variant will make the 'easier' one, well, a lot easier. Do pullups and you'll improve your chinups without doing them, for example. Works almost every time.

However, get too different and there won't be as much carryover. If you can only do, say, 5 full ring dips but like 30 on parallel bars, and then increase your ring dips to 10, don't expect a lot of direct carryover, at least not immediately.
I've also seen people increase their reps of full HSPU with little to no carryover to their max reps of HeSPU... again, because the difficulty level is just too different (I tried this myself a while back, after seeing that, and experienced the same thing. From 1 to 6 full HSPU but HeSPU remained the same, at ~15).

Slightly harder but very similar in terms of stability, ROM, reps done, etc. is the best way to go in terms of special assistance work.

Here's another example I used recently. Using an axle bar to deadlift would drastically limit the weight I can use (my fingers aren't very long). So, just doing axle DL for a while would not make me any better at normal DL. However, using a squat bar, which is only a little bit thicker than the normal bar, and has no knurling, makes the lift noticeably harder but I can still do ~90% of my max on it. So it's a very valuable tool. Powerlifters call this 'specialized variety'.
High and low bar squat would be another example... incline bench and flat bench... squats with a 40lb vest or empty bar and bodyweight free squats... kb swings with a 32kg compared to a 24... etc.
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Buckyx on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:42 am

thanks for reply, I will probably alternate my dipping stations to give stabilizers some rest because its shaking like crazy at some point, also flat grip and my poor wrist flexibility => bottom and top position are the hardest
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Josh T. on Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:35 pm

Buckyx,

Try it and see. In 3 to 4 weeks, retest your max dips. Was there improvement? If the answer is no, then now you know that that doesn't work for you.

If your goal is dips with a max weight, you need to be doing...you guessed it!! Dips with weight. You can mix up the grip width of the dips, add pauses, etc., but other variations will only help so much and at some point you'll just need to focus on adding weight to the dips. That's it.

Case in point:

Dips + 180lbs

Let me know if this link actually works and takes you to the video. Need to put this on youtube at some point.

Anyway, this was 2 dips with 180lbs of added weight, and I had been doing weighted dips for about 8 weeks. I also did 10 dips with 135lbs of added weight, and a triple with +155lbs. ADD WEIGHT TO THE DIPS. I'm not saying you'll get 'strong like bull' like me (that's basically a 2xBW dip for me), but everyone has to start somewhere, and if that's what you're training for, that's what you need to be doing. There will come a point of diminishing returns, and then you can worry about working stabilizers, more assistance exercises, all that crap. Better be doing weighted dips though.
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Fatman on Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:26 pm

Josh T. wrote:Try it and see. In 3 to 4 weeks, retest your max dips. Was there improvement? If the answer is no, then now you know that that doesn't work for you.

This is true. Carryover is highly individual and you have to experiment to see what works for you.

Extra stabilizer work won't help you much past the newbie stage. A dip on rings is "harder" than one on parallel bars, but it won't improve your bar dip numbers significantly. A barbell squat on a stability ball is incredibly hard, but will do nothing for your regular barbell squat. I actually find ring pullups much easier than regular pullups.
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Dave on Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:45 pm

Ring pullups are easier than pronated grip pullups for me because the joints of the wrist, elbow and shoulder can do whatever they want. But neutral grip pullup on a fixed apparatus is easier than even ring or suspension pullups for me because I don't waste as much energy trying to keep myself steady. Except in cases of necessity I have ditched pronated grip pullups completely and supinated grip chins, except maybe close grip chins, which are not as hard on my joints.
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Re: workout in hard enviroment

Post by Buckyx on Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:46 am

yeah I need to try to know
just was curious if I should stay dipping between chairs where I can do more reps with the same weight
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