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More from the art of manliness

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More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:07 pm

lessons from fight club

we are a generation of men raised by women

It is very true, nowadays boys and young men do not have the guidance and positive male role models to help shape them and their values into positive and productive men. I work full days plus overtime. I wish I could spend more time with my boys. It saddens me that I can not.  I need to keep reminding myself that this is the best time to have a major impact in their lives. They need me to be their role model and teach them how to be men, positive productive men.

do it now, live your life
We spend most of our time wasting lives.  Today, right now is the best time to do what you need to do.  Do not procastinate.  I need to take more control of my life to so that I may live it to the fullest.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Journeyman on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:16 pm

Meh. Fight Club was a satire for a reason... 99% of people who like it, like it for the wrong reasons.

AOM in general kinda turns me off as it's overdramatic and self-affirming... be strong to honor your ancestors? There's a fighter in all of us? Really? Reminds me of those women's magazines that tell women they're all 'goddesses on the inside' or whatever.
Many of the articles have valid points, though... all jmo.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Dave on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:45 pm

Journeyman wrote:Meh. Fight Club was a satire for a reason... 99% of people who like it, like it for the wrong reasons.

I'm curious what reasons you mean.  I was not a huge fan of it, myself.

Don't click here if you don't want the secret of fight club without watching it:
But I did like the twist ending regarding Edward Norton/Brad Pitt's common character (which I admittedly did not see coming, wasn't really expecting any twist).  I also liked the contempt against the debt based monetary system, though not the means by which it was expressed.

AOM ... overdramatic and self-affirming... be strong to honor your ancestors? There's a fighter in all of us? Really? Reminds me of those women's magazines that tell women they're all 'goddesses on the inside' or whatever.

True, to varying degrees, sensationalism draws people in, as does "vicarity".  He provides both in a "now you can too, I'll show you how" kind of way.  And most of the stuff I've read from him is pretty cool, fun, useful, etc.

Many of the articles have valid points, though... all jmo.

Indeed.  I'm glad he drew me in.  ;)
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Journeyman on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:54 am

I mean, personally I loved the movie, and re-watch it often. Never finished the book but it's not bad either.

Anyhow, regarding the movie--it is a satire not only of our conformist, materialistic society but also the extremism of the rebellion against it. It's a dark comedy, not a parable saying that we should be doing what Brad Pitt's half of Tyler does... in the end, the hero realizes his error and tries to correct it (but too late, so the ending is rather open-ended. If there is a point, it is that neither extreme is the 'answer' if there is one.).
Anyway, someone drawn in by Brad Pitt (and you're supposed to, he does an excellent job of making his Tyler extremely compelling) the joke's on you--he's not the hero, Norton is.
imo, it should be regarded much the same as American Psycho, another movie I really like. It's portraying the total vacuousness of the wall street 'haves' but it's not like Christian Bale's character is in any way identifiable or redeemable. He starts as a psycho and ends up as a psychotic. But it's entertaining, funny, dark, social commentary.

Anyway... in no way a film student--one of those could explain much better--but that's the 'real' take, fwiw.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:49 am

I guess I should have separated the 3 articles into 3 different posts.

The first; yes satire, movie, make believe. I still think that there are some lessons that one may/can take from it.
point 1: says to take life by its horns and we should as we as a society often sit back and wait for things to happen. We are complacent with life and because it is all at our finger tips we sit and wait.
Point 2; about a super clean life. I can relate that to vaccines for example. Both my children are not vaccinated. We are allowing their bodies to do what they are meant to do - allow their immune system to do their job. Further, due to religious reason we have chosen to not vaccinate.
point 3; we are a materialistic society. We live outside our means. Most people, couples, families are in major debt. I do not want to live that way. Many people I know live check to check. The things you own, end up owning you.
Point 4; we are have to be fighters. I see it as resilience. our lives are full of stress, pain, suffering and the like. We have to keep getting back up and not allow ourself to be helpless and hopeless. Resilience is key. I refuse to allow to be kept down and always get back up.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:54 am

The post on men raised by women.

I so agree. I think about my own life. I work, my wife stays home with our boys. She does an amazing job with them, teaching them, loving them, giving them safety. I wish I could stay home with them. I try to be there as much as I can. Play with them, love them, teach them to treat and respect others as well as themselved. Family is key and that is what I try to show them
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Journeyman on Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:11 pm

Cesar wrote:I guess I should have separated the 3 articles into 3 different posts.

The first; yes satire, movie, make believe.  I still think that there are some lessons that one may/can take from it.  
point 1: says to take life by its horns and we should as we as a society often sit back and wait for things to happen.  We are complacent with life and because it is all at our finger tips we sit and wait.  
Point 2; about a super clean life. I can relate that to vaccines for example.  Both my children are not vaccinated.  We are allowing their bodies to do what they are meant to do - allow their immune system to do their job.  Further, due to religious reason we have chosen to not vaccinate.  
point 3; we are a materialistic society.  We live outside our means.  Most people, couples, families are in major debt.  I do not want to live that way.  Many people I know live check to check. The things you own, end up owning you.
Point 4;  we are have to be fighters.  I see it as resilience. our lives are full of stress, pain, suffering and the like.  We have to keep getting back up and not allow ourself to be helpless and hopeless.  Resilience is key.  I refuse to allow to be kept down and always get back up.  

1. A lot of people seem to think that if they go out after something, they deserve to have it given to them. This entitlement is as much the problem and I've seen this in more people, as people just being really darn lazy. You have to go out and get it... but you also have to be willing to get nothing for something, because that's real life. (Somewhat unrelated but an important distinction imo).

2. I half agree with you. Overcoddling and over-cleaning isn't healthy. Vaccines are, though, like pasteurizing milk, a simple and safe precaution I don't see any reason not to do.
I understand not doing it for religious reasons, though.

3. If you can--best of luck and more power to you. The way society is set up... that is very difficult to do. I just set up my student loan payments and if I pay them off all at once there is actually a penalty... they want you to accumulate that extra interest over time. Just the way things work.

4. If you want to see it that way. It's just life--sometimes it'll be harder than others. I always thought that thinking of days as battles and every struggle as a huge test of character as being overdramatic and unnecessary; but if it gives someone strength... no reason not to regard it that way.

And I totally agree on the men/women thing.
If you've read what Paul Carter writes on family... that is some good stuff there.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:44 am

1. Yes I agree. entitlement is def. an issue. I am referring for the ones who work hard, are focused on their goals and objective and even when they fall off the horse they get back up and try again.

2. there is too much controversy when it comes to vaccines. too many chemicals in order to preserve them and make them what they are. our bodies are wonderful machines that can heal when the right conditions are there and we allow them to.

3. We try to. right now we only have some on our lowes card as we are doing some work on our tenants apartment. Hence things own you. I remember my school loans, it sucked. The great thing is that now they are paid off. Yes there will be penalties and that is how they make their money.

4. I agree some have the capability to overcome these stressors and some do not. Hence the work I do. I am a mental health clinician and work with children and their families as they have become so overwhelmed by their stress, mental health and barriers that have gotten in the way of their progress that they need to reach out to a Clinic setting such as the one I work in. I try to help, guide and walk alongside them to help them overcome.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Journeyman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:30 pm

1. Yep, I know.

2. Our bodies can do a lot... but they're also exposed to a lot of unnatural stuff that they simply were not designed to cope with. If you take public transportation, gas up your car, etc. you're getting a ton more 'stuff' than you naturally would or should. Vaccinations are a proven way to even the odds in that regard, and the scares about harmful vaccines have been, in a word, BS.

3. Good on you man. I hope to be there someday myself.

4. Solid. It's great that you can do something to help as your career.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Dave on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:03 pm

It's been explained to me that the anti-vaccination movement was started by a man who later admitted to falsifying his research on the subject, and yet his research is still often quoted by anti-vaccination pundits.  I find this interesting, as I have been on both sides of the fence.  Without having ever really studied the matter, I am now content to remain open to any information that may be presented before I plant my flag in either camp (if I ever do at all, that is).  Unless I get married and have children, anyway, at which point the studies will begin in earnest.

Journeyman wrote:It's great that you can do something to help as your career.

Word!
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Journeyman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:38 pm

Came across this a while back though I haven't re-read it in some time:

http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/2013/10/28/setting-the-record-straight-dubunking-all-the-flu-vaccine-myths/#gotflu

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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by dospooks on Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:07 am

I happened to run across this thread, and forgive me for sounding dogmatic, but the anti-vax stuff about autism is now known to be an admitted hoax. That "researcher" did more harm than he will ever know, indirectly scaring parents out of protecting their children from preventable diseases. Nothing in this world is perfect. There may, in fact, be some documented cases somewhere of people having bad reactions to various vaccines. But the overwhelming majority of medical evidence supports their universal use. It dismays me to see so many people still filled with uncertainty about whether to vaccinate their kids. There just aren't very many other things in life that can possibly be more of a sure bet than the benefits of vaccination.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:02 pm

Daniel,
I understand there are many theories about autism and vaccines and all these differen connections.
We have chosen to not vaccinate at this time for different reasons.
Including religious reason.

as well as the amount of chemicals that children are now exposed to at young age when their bodies are still developing. further, when I was younger, a child would get maybe 16 vaccines before age 5 or 6 and now we are looking at 60 vaccines. Introducing all these chemicals into the body, does not sit well with me and my wife. We do not know what problems could arise from overexposure. I am not trying to seem over paranoid or loopy for that matter. Such trying to be cautious. We eat as clean and organic as we can to prevent over exposure to pesticides, antibiotics, what have you related to eating fruits, veggies and animal products.

that's it.

Do you happen to have the link for the admitted hoax?
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by dospooks on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:10 pm

You can find the links as easily as I could on google. The scientist in question publicly retracted the falsified data on the link to autism. As for religious reasons, there's nothing I can say to you about that I suppose, might as well argue about whether superman or mighty mouse would win in a fight. But I strongly urge you to reconsider. Not vaccinating your kids puts them needlessly at risk, and also increases risk to others who may contact them. "Herd immunity" breaks down if too many people don't get vaccinated.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Dave on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:47 pm

Cesar, you are part of the modern institution calling itself the Catholic Church, aren't you?  If so, I can't imagine what they have said which would keep you from vaccinating.  I am Catholic (of the "rejecting the modern institution all they way back to 1878" variety, mind you - heresies and antipopes and what not), but I can think of nothing in the old papal documents, ecumenical councils or Church fathers which prohibits vaccination, let alone anything from the newchurch.  I am interested in hearing your reasons; I'm always open to learning something new, if you'll indulge me, that is.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:15 pm

I am not as versed as you are on the scripture, Dave.

Our reasons (Antoinette and I) are for both religious and health.  Mostly health which we have supported via religion in order to enroll Lil Cesar in a catholic school.  We had to complete vaccination exemption forms and provide a letter with our reasons.  We plan on doing the same for Santino.  

The religious support or scripture support included some of these reasons.

We have chosen not to vaccinate due to the unknown impact that the various quantities of chemicals and substances within each vaccine will have on our children's developing bodies.  Antoinette and I do not feel comfortable exposing them at such a young age to all these subtances especially during this extensive period of development.  We find it sad that we can not make an educated decision (we did not just get up one day and said, you know what how about we do not vaccinate them) without coming up with all sorts of supporting points which include using religious exemption.  They are our children and we chose to parent and raise them how we feel is more beneficial to them based on what we learn.

Example; we have a family bed - I do not have enough fingers and toes to count the many people who have made comments such as children need to sleep alone and all their different reasons.  Then nursing, Antoinette nursed Cesar until a little before 2 and plans on doing the same for Santino.  We have had people saying why, there is no need. Well there is, the best thing for a baby is their mother's milk in addition to other foods.  A nursing mother is frowned upon in many places because it is indecent to expose yourself.  It is natural to nurse and care for your child.  

I guess I went on a rant.  

In regards to the herd community, if these vaccines are so effective, why worry.  One ex coworker once said that she would not allow her children to play with mine because mine were not vaccinated.  What is the fear if hers are vaccinated and the vaccines that she has allowed her children to have are so effective.

I do not believe that it is just vaccines and instead declining vaccines at this time is only a small part of how we are raising our children.  There are many reasons for and against this practice.  This is what we choose to do now.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:24 pm

You know, it was really hard to write all that. I think discussing my beliefs religious or no, it is hard to put down on paper (sort of). that is one of the reasons that I do not get involved in political issues or debates. I hope noone is takes it as the absolute truth or me preaching. it is just what Antoinette and I have chosen to do at this time for our children.


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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:27 pm

Dave wrote:Cesar, you are part of the modern institution calling itself the Catholic Church, aren't you?
I am not sure. I was raised Roman Catholic. I attend church not as consistently as I would like to. I believe in the Bible and doing the right thing.
I am not super religious in the sense that I pray all the time, go church 2-3 times per week. I guess I am really not sure.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by dospooks on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:43 pm

If you are going to fall back on a blanket statement like "It is just what we've chosen to do for our children", that doesn't really leave any room for debate. Of course they are your kids, and its your decision.

Likewise the religious stuff: I won't touch that.

But if you want to debate medical efficacy, and risk vs. benefit, you're on.

Even if you could make the case that its only a risk to your kids and no one else (which you can't, see below), so why should anyone care what you do if the vaccines are so effective, then you are basically saying the risk of your child being harmed by a preventable (and possibly crippling/fatal) disease is worth taking, rather than have them consume a minute quantity of preservatives, etc, which have never been conclusively shown to be harmful to this day, other than some rare allergies.

You cannot even make that argument, because there are some people who are at greater risk despite their willingness to be vaccinated. Some people can't have the vaccine for underlying medical reasons such as illnesses that affect their immune system. Elderly people can't mount as strong of an immune response as the young, even with vaccines. So a child who catches a contagious illness and escapes unscathed may still harm those around him.

You say you are making an educated decision. But I urge you to really look into the data about how the incidence of diseases that can really hurt or even kill people has markedly dropped since the advent of widespread vaccination, and compare that to the incidence of undesireable side effects of vaccination. All life involves tough decisions that seem like a gamble. The odds in this case strongly favor vaccination over non vaccination.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Brahma Bill on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:49 pm

Just an observation on my part. Our kids were worried about the whole vaccine and autism thing, so the Pediatrician spread them out over time. The little man still got them all though. So that's an option if your main concern is quantity. Truth is, he's probably getting more harmful chemicals from the Kraft mac and cheese than anywhere else.

Daniel - every body knows that Superman would win because he's a real guy and Mighty Mouse is a cartoon character. :D
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Iliander on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:55 pm

Vaccination in English gematria equals 666.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by dospooks on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:58 pm

Iliander wrote:Vaccination in English gematria equals 666.

Don't be a troublemaker
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by dospooks on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:59 pm

Brahma Bill wrote:Just an observation on my part. Our kids were worried about the whole vaccine and autism thing, so the Pediatrician spread them out over time. The little man still got them all though. So that's an option if your main concern is quantity. Truth is, he's probably getting more harmful chemicals from the Kraft mac and cheese than anywhere else.

Daniel - every body knows that Superman would win because he's a real guy and Mighty Mouse is a cartoon character. :D

Thank you for picking up on that movie line! I knew I could count on someone to lighten this up a bit.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Iliander on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:02 pm

dospooks wrote:Don't be a troublemaker
I'm not. I'm showing signs.

"ebola vaccines" also makes 666. Something sinister is going on.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by dospooks on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:15 pm

Iliander wrote:
dospooks wrote:Don't be a troublemaker
I'm not. I'm showing signs.

"ebola vaccines" also makes 666. Something sinister is going on.

If you're going to bring mysticism into this, then I really have nothing more to say. I thought you were kidding.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Journeyman on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:22 pm

dospooks wrote:If you are going to fall back on a blanket statement like "It is just what we've chosen to do for our children", that doesn't really leave any room for debate. Of course they are your kids, and its your decision.

Likewise the religious stuff: I won't touch that.

But if you want to debate medical efficacy, and risk vs. benefit, you're on.

Even if you could make the case that its only a risk to your kids and no one else (which you can't, see below), so why should anyone care what you do if the vaccines are so effective, then you are basically saying the risk of your child being harmed by a preventable (and possibly crippling/fatal) disease is worth taking, rather than have them consume a minute quantity of preservatives, etc, which have never been conclusively shown to be harmful to this day, other than some rare allergies.

You cannot even make that argument, because there are some people who are at greater risk despite their willingness to be vaccinated.  Some people can't have the vaccine for underlying medical reasons such as illnesses that affect their immune system. Elderly people can't mount as strong of an immune response as the young, even with vaccines. So a child who catches a contagious illness and escapes unscathed may still harm those around him.

You say you are making an educated decision. But I urge you to really look into the data about how the incidence of diseases that can really hurt or even kill people has markedly dropped since the advent of widespread vaccination, and compare that to the incidence of undesireable side effects of vaccination.  All life involves tough decisions that seem like a gamble. The odds in this case strongly favor vaccination over non vaccination.

:cheers2:
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:59 pm

Yes blanket statement. We have made that decision, thank you for respecting that.
 
I am not going to even imply that we (ant and I) are experts. Yes both sides have their opinions, facts, studies, etc.  
We have looked at the "we are not vaccinating" side. You make a good point about the other and definitely worth looking into.

My stance is that we are exposed to so many toxins as it is and do not want to expose them to anything else that is not necessary.  Like I mentioned, there are many different substances added each vaccine to help sustain, maintain and transport the vaccine that we rather not add to the mix.  This does not mean that when older, we may choose to vaccinate.

Bill - yes one of the options was doing a modified schedule.  Yes the main concern is is quantity and do not want to place that much stress in their little bodies. We chose to wait for now.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by dospooks on Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:30 pm

OK, well better late than never, I'm glad you'll consider doing it later. But doesn't that kind of invalidate your religious objections? If the main concern is quantity, at least talk to your pediatrician about the ones that provide protection from the most dangerous diseases, and skip/delay the others if you must.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:19 pm

Yes consider. lol.
I still object. The problem is that the only way to completely objective based on religion leads to home schooling. Not going to home school. other options is to remain in a catholic school and remain with the objections.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by itlives on Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:23 pm

This thread should have been in Deep Thoughts :mrgreen:
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Cesar on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:42 am

not too deep. keeping it just below the surface.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

Post by Fatman on Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:03 pm

Journeyman wrote:Vaccinations are a proven way to even the odds in that regard, and the scares about harmful vaccines have been, in a word, BS.

Very good point. On the Fatman Meter of Conspiracy Theories, the "harmful vaccines" theory rates somewhere in the middle.

AOM has some useful advice at times. I always thought the ridiculous "macho" tone was tongue-in-cheek. I mean, no one serious would name a website "The Art of Manliness" to begin with.

I'm also pretty sure Palahniuk wrote "Fight Club" as satire, but the self-actualizing reaction from the office warrior crowd (see also: Lift-Run-Bang) has long drowned out all other interpretations. Stripped of its satirical context, "Fight Club" would simply be another existentialist, nihilistic work that tries way too hard.

The "men raised by women" thing is neither here nor there. People like to romanticize the Good Old Days and all that BS, but the fact is that dads didn't really play a huge role in raising their kids 200 years ago either. More families remained together due to backward social mores, but this didn't necessarily mean more dad involvement in child rearing. Considering the prevalent male attitudes at the time, this was by no means a bad thing.
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Re: More from the art of manliness

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